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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:15:28 GMT -5
I agree there isn't an "enlightened state", which would be a mind state, and really, I can't remember the last time somebody suggested there was. Also, since 'standing on the bank' may have been my idea, I never suggested it was passive and neutral, just a position of observation rather than mind identification. I would argue that it is mind identified but in a very subtle way though I agree that you have never suggested passivity or neutrality. I think there is an implication of somehow being able to somehow stand apart from our creative nature when this observation position is still a creative position. I find the word 'Peace' a little suggestive of an enlightened state. Whatever, the point is to make the distinction between being pulled along by the thoughts and observing the thoughts as they move. Whether it's a subtle identification or still a creative position or what it seems to imply to you all seems like a distraction from that simple distinction. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:28:56 GMT -5
Your world can be a world of peace. When the world you're talking about requires that others be peaceful, this presents a problem. My world can be a high degree of peace, but at the height of my ambition, the level of peace Im talking about would require a global peace. Right, a bit of a problem attaching your peace to the behavior of others. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 14:31:16 GMT -5
I would argue that it is mind identified but in a very subtle way though I agree that you have never suggested passivity or neutrality. I think there is an implication of somehow being able to somehow stand apart from our creative nature when this observation position is still a creative position. I find the word 'Peace' a little suggestive of an enlightened state. Whatever, the point is to make the distinction between being pulled along by the thoughts and observing the thoughts as they move. Whether it's a subtle identification or still a creative position or what it seems to imply to you all seems like a distraction from that simple distinction. I think observing thoughts as they move can be a cool thing to do and I like the simplicity of how you said it there. Its when stories are told and believed about who/what we are in relation to that activity that things can get a bit messy. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:32:04 GMT -5
When I talk about truth at all cost, I'm usually referring to the willingness to collapse illusions, so it means the truth about everything you believe. That's what "myth busting" is about.  Is being willing to collapse illusions the same as being willing to release attachments? Releasing attachments requires the collapse of illusions. Being willing to release attachments is an oxymoron. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:33:50 GMT -5
Whatever, the point is to make the distinction between being pulled along by the thoughts and observing the thoughts as they move. Whether it's a subtle identification or still a creative position or what it seems to imply to you all seems like a distraction from that simple distinction. I think observing thoughts as they move can be a cool thing to do and I like the simplicity of how you said it there. Its when stories are told and believed about who/what we are in relation to that activity that things can get a bit messy. Yup, yup. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 14:34:15 GMT -5
My world can be a high degree of peace, but at the height of my ambition, the level of peace Im talking about would require a global peace. Right, a bit of a problem attaching your peace to the behavior of others. Well, if my peace is not at all dependent on the peace of others does that mean that I have free will hehe? Saying that my peace is dependent on others is a limiting idea, and not always a helpful one, but on the other hand sometimes it is helpful to acknowledge a collective consciousness. It all depends. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 14:35:38 GMT -5
Is being willing to collapse illusions the same as being willing to release attachments? Releasing attachments requires the collapse of illusions. Being willing to release attachments is an oxymoron. Im not sure that releasing attachments does require the collapse of illusions but it does depend on the definition of illusion you are going with. If anything perceived is an illusion then that is an illusion that doesnt collapse. Being willing to release attachment in not an oxymoron. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2012 14:38:16 GMT -5
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 14:57:15 GMT -5
Not called to be anything specifically. Just to know Truth (which may include even being Truth  All of this might boggle the mind, but Truth is like that. It's abstract, and I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with its abstractness. One of my favorite Buddha quotes is, "rare is it to be born a human being, rarer still to have heard of Enlightenment, and even rarer still to pursue it." That said, I accept that not everyone is going to pursue it, and so there will be not a few whose minds will be boggled by the mere mention of Truth. Let them be boggled. It's not mine to unboggle them. Thats all well and good but its also not helpful for YOUR mind to be boggled. A mind that is clear, open and direct is helpful. The word 'Truth' is a boggler! I kind of also think that when we seek 'Truth' what we are seeking IS something more than the present moment can potentially offer. The present moment has all sorts of things to offer like love, joy, grace, playfulness, fun, compassion, frustration, misery, pain, despair....but it cant offer us 'Truth' (I guess coz we already are 'Truth') Actually, whenever my mind IS boggled, I am reminded through just noticing its bogglement that it's just mind. So no problem there. Currently, however, the only thing that is boggling my mind, is what principles you work from, if any. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:57:52 GMT -5
Right, a bit of a problem attaching your peace to the behavior of others. Well, if my peace is not at all dependent on the peace of others does that mean that I have free will hehe? It just means you're no longer duck taped to the one who's looking for whirled peas. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 15:05:46 GMT -5
Releasing attachments requires the collapse of illusions. Being willing to release attachments is an oxymoron. Im not sure that releasing attachments does require the collapse of illusions but it does depend on the definition of illusion you are going with. If anything perceived is an illusion then that is an illusion that doesnt collapse. An illusion is only an illusion as long as you're not seeing it for what it is. It's a contradiction. How can you be attached to something you have no attachment to? |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 16:55:35 GMT -5
Thats all well and good but its also not helpful for YOUR mind to be boggled. A mind that is clear, open and direct is helpful. The word 'Truth' is a boggler! I kind of also think that when we seek 'Truth' what we are seeking IS something more than the present moment can potentially offer. The present moment has all sorts of things to offer like love, joy, grace, playfulness, fun, compassion, frustration, misery, pain, despair....but it cant offer us 'Truth' (I guess coz we already are 'Truth') Actually, whenever my mind IS boggled, I am reminded through just noticing its bogglement that it's just mind. So no problem there. Currently, however, the only thing that is boggling my mind, is what principles you work from, if any. A fundamental principle I work from is that getting very clear about what we want increases the odds of getting it. What I am struggling to see in your words is a clarity as to what you really want. There have been some grandiose notions that sound pretty cool, but I havent seen much clarity in this matter. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 16:56:40 GMT -5
Well, if my peace is not at all dependent on the peace of others does that mean that I have free will hehe? It just means you're no longer duck taped to the one who's looking for whirled peas. Who would be duck taped to the one who is interested in world peace? That sounds pretty schizophrenic. It also sounds like you are pointing to an enlightened state. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 16:58:04 GMT -5
Im not sure that releasing attachments does require the collapse of illusions but it does depend on the definition of illusion you are going with. If anything perceived is an illusion then that is an illusion that doesnt collapse. An illusion is only an illusion as long as you're not seeing it for what it is. Thats not a definitionIt's a contradiction. How can you be attached to something you have no attachment to? You can be attached to releasing attachment. I would say its very useful to be attached to releasing attachment. Its how we release it. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 17:03:01 GMT -5
Actually, whenever my mind IS boggled, I am reminded through just noticing its bogglement that it's just mind. So no problem there. Currently, however, the only thing that is boggling my mind, is what principles you work from, if any. A fundamental principle I work from is that getting very clear about what we want increases the odds of getting it. What I am struggling to see in your words is a clarity as to what you really want. There have been some grandiose notions that sound pretty cool, but I havent seen much clarity in this matter. Call it grandiose if you like, but I don't know how to make "Truth at any cost" any clearer for you, at least in terms of principles. Otherwise, I get where you're coming from, which is, I guess, getting what you want. So noted.  |
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