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Post by silence on Jan 20, 2012 13:13:16 GMT -5
I agree there isn't an "enlightened state", which would be a mind state, and really, I can't remember the last time somebody suggested there was. Also, since 'standing on the bank' may have been my idea, I never suggested it was passive and neutral, just a position of observation rather than mind identification. I would argue that it is mind identified but in a very subtle way though I agree that you have never suggested passivity or neutrality. I think there is an implication of somehow being able to somehow stand apart from our creative nature when this observation position is still a creative position. I find the word 'Peace' a little suggestive of an enlightened state. I take it you at one point had a pretty significant hang up about trying to become enlightened and finding 'the state'? |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 13:19:59 GMT -5
I would argue that it is mind identified but in a very subtle way though I agree that you have never suggested passivity or neutrality. I think there is an implication of somehow being able to somehow stand apart from our creative nature when this observation position is still a creative position. I find the word 'Peace' a little suggestive of an enlightened state. I take it you at one point had a pretty significant hang up about trying to become enlightened and finding 'the state'? In my Eckhart Tolle days I was on the search for a state, yes. E.T doesnt actually use the word 'enlightened' that much so that wasnt quite what it was about for me, but I thought that being in the Now (or being the Now) was a state. Even though he made it clear that it wasnt, my mind just insisted on taking it the wrong way. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 13:27:43 GMT -5
I take it you at one point had a pretty significant hang up about trying to become enlightened and finding 'the state'? In my Eckhart Tolle days I was on the search for a state, yes. E.T doesnt actually use the word 'enlightened' that much so that wasnt quite what it was about for me, but I thought that being in the Now (or being the Now) was a state. Even though he made it clear that it wasnt, my mind just insisted on taking it the wrong way. I have to admit, I've been prone to that tendency, myself, but am more recently coming to realize that it's really not a 'state'.  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 13:29:52 GMT -5
The idea of 'Truth at all costs' might seem simple because it boggles the mind with its abstractness and lack of specific meaning. Its really not simple though because it has to be explained. Yet we all know truthfulness, love, honesty, clarity. 'Truth at all costs' doesn't boggle my mind, and any more than eating a ripe kumquat would boggle my mind. Why you think it has to be explained any further than that is probably why we're even having this discussion. For the record, 'Truth at all costs' isn't something that I teach, but the description of what drives me--it's rather like a calling, but then, I have reason to suspect that we're all called, though, since that's abstract, I suspect we would hit the wall with that discussion. Lasty, you say that 'we all know truthfulness, love, honesty, clarity.' Aren't those also abstract terms? Moreover, does everyone really know these things? If so, how do we know, if not revealed by something even more abstract than the terms themselves? I think I edited slightly as you were replying to make my meaning a little clearer. However, if we say we want 'Truth at all costs', we have to first explain why we are using a capital 'T'. Can you explain? Then the implication is to ask 'Truth of WHAT at all costs'. The idea of 'Truth' boggles the mind, but this is actually not helpful if what we want is to be present. The examples I gave are of qualities that humans have a reference for. 'Truth' is not a quality, and it is something that not all people have any reference for or understanding about. Its not a word that connects people, its a word that boggles minds. Therefore I would say it is abstract. If I asked you who or what you were being called to be, what would your answer be? My answer would be....truthful, honest, open, loving, joyful etc.... |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 13:36:17 GMT -5
In my Eckhart Tolle days I was on the search for a state, yes. E.T doesnt actually use the word 'enlightened' that much so that wasnt quite what it was about for me, but I thought that being in the Now (or being the Now) was a state. Even though he made it clear that it wasnt, my mind just insisted on taking it the wrong way. I have to admit, I've been prone to that tendency, myself, but am more recently coming to realize that it's really not a 'state'. Right. I think it is almost an inevitable trap, and we are not the only ones who have been prone to that tendency. When we recognize that the goal is not to experience anything different from what all humans have a reference for, the trap falls away. |
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Post by angela on Jan 20, 2012 13:43:11 GMT -5
adyashanti has a wonderful take on the now. he says..... when have you ever been OUT of the now? show me someone who has ever managed to escape NOW.... honestly. is it possible to not be present? even daydreaming, even in a hallucination... it's all happening right now, in my experience. you will never, ever, ever be more present than you are. and trying to do so, is in part what makes the world act so crazy. all the attempts to "be present" are a sneaky way of trying to escape, actually.  |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 13:46:49 GMT -5
'Truth at all costs' doesn't boggle my mind, and any more than eating a ripe kumquat would boggle my mind. Why you think it has to be explained any further than that is probably why we're even having this discussion. For the record, 'Truth at all costs' isn't something that I teach, but the description of what drives me--it's rather like a calling, but then, I have reason to suspect that we're all called, though, since that's abstract, I suspect we would hit the wall with that discussion. Lasty, you say that 'we all know truthfulness, love, honesty, clarity.' Aren't those also abstract terms? Moreover, does everyone really know these things? If so, how do we know, if not revealed by something even more abstract than the terms themselves? I think I edited slightly as you were replying to make my meaning a little clearer. However, if we say we want 'Truth at all costs', we have to first explain why we are using a capital 'T'. Can you explain? Then the implication is to ask 'Truth of WHAT at all costs'. The idea of 'Truth' boggles the mind, but this is actually not helpful if what we want is to be present. The examples I gave are of qualities that humans have a reference for. 'Truth' is not a quality, and it is something that not all people have any reference for or understanding about. Its not a word that connects people, its a word that boggles minds. Therefore I would say it is abstract. If I asked you who or what you were being called to be, what would your answer be? My answer would be....truthful, honest, open, loving, joyful etc.... Not called to be anything specifically. Just to know Truth (which may include even being Truth  All of this might boggle the mind, but Truth is like that. It's abstract, and I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with its abstractness. One of my favorite Buddha quotes is, "rare is it to be born a human being, rarer still to have heard of Enlightenment, and even rarer still to pursue it." That said, I accept that not everyone is going to pursue it, and so there will be not a few whose minds will be boggled by the mere mention of Truth. Let them be boggled. It's not mine to unboggle them. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 13:49:17 GMT -5
adyashanti has a wonderful take on the now. he says..... when have you ever been OUT of the now? show me someone who has ever managed to escape NOW.... honestly. is it possible to not be present? even daydreaming, even in a hallucination... it's all happening right now, in my experience. you will never, ever, ever be more present than you are. and trying to do so, is in part what makes the world act so crazy. all the attempts to "be present" are a sneaky way of trying to escape, actually. Dangit, Ang, you make me jealous with all the Adya you keep springing up. Makes me want ever more to read one of his books. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 13:50:07 GMT -5
Basically, that sounds like what we talk about here every day, though perhaps with the focus on making it personal and calling it something other than enlightenment. What Im talking about is a world of peace. Your world can be a world of peace. When the world you're talking about requires that others be peaceful, this presents a problem. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 13:55:08 GMT -5
I think I edited slightly as you were replying to make my meaning a little clearer. However, if we say we want 'Truth at all costs', we have to first explain why we are using a capital 'T'. Can you explain? Then the implication is to ask 'Truth of WHAT at all costs'. The idea of 'Truth' boggles the mind, but this is actually not helpful if what we want is to be present. The examples I gave are of qualities that humans have a reference for. 'Truth' is not a quality, and it is something that not all people have any reference for or understanding about. Its not a word that connects people, its a word that boggles minds. Therefore I would say it is abstract. If I asked you who or what you were being called to be, what would your answer be? My answer would be....truthful, honest, open, loving, joyful etc.... Not called to be anything specifically. Just to know Truth (which may include even being Truth All of this might boggle the mind, but Truth is like that. It's abstract, and I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with its abstractness. One of my favorite Buddha quotes is, "rare is it to be born a human being, rarer still to have heard of Enlightenment, and even rarer still to pursue it." That said, I accept that not everyone is going to pursue it, and so there will be not a few whose minds will be boggled by the mere mention of Truth. Let them be boggled. It's not mine to unboggle them. Thats all well and good but its also not helpful for YOUR mind to be boggled. A mind that is clear, open and direct is helpful. The word 'Truth' is a boggler! I kind of also think that when we seek 'Truth' what we are seeking IS something more than the present moment can potentially offer. The present moment has all sorts of things to offer like love, joy, grace, playfulness, fun, compassion, frustration, misery, pain, despair....but it cant offer us 'Truth' (I guess coz we already are 'Truth') |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 13:57:34 GMT -5
What Im talking about is a world of peace. Your world can be a world of peace. When the world you're talking about requires that others be peaceful, this presents a problem. My world can be a high degree of peace, but at the height of my ambition, the level of peace Im talking about would require a global peace. I dont pay much conscious attention to starving children in Africa, but I dont have to for it to affect my peace a bit. We are all connected. And yet if I was attached to the goal, do you really think I would be spending so much time with about 25 other people?! Surely I would be on some crazy kind of Ruthless Truth mission. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:00:56 GMT -5
Personally, I could give a hoot about approach. I tend to be all about "Truth at all costs". And if that means that there is no Truth, then so be it. However, the Truth that I know now is quite often reflected in what folks around here call THIS, which is abstract, and which cannot be defined or expressed in words. It is not a search, but rather a realization. So, here I am, Andrew, simply trying to understand you, (and, btw, knowing that I'm not alone  ), and tbh honest, I fail. Sometimes, what you say resonates with me, and at other times, it falls flat on its face in light of Truth. I accept all that, and I know you'd probably pass it off as something that people 'just do'. I just felt compelled to let you know that, for some reason. The difficulty is that 'Truth at all costs' sounds good, it sounds grand, it sounds like a cool thing to be involved in, and it is what I would say if I wanted to sell an enlightenment book, ...but its actually really very meaningless. If you go to your neighbour and tell him that you want to experience more clarity, honesty and openness, they are likely to get a sense of what you mean. If you say you want 'Truth at all costs'....they would be like '''the truth of what at all costs?''. If its something not easily understood, then its really not worth wanting. When I talk about truth at all cost, I'm usually referring to the willingness to collapse illusions, so it means the truth about everything you believe. That's what "myth busting" is about.  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 14:01:36 GMT -5
adyashanti has a wonderful take on the now. he says..... when have you ever been OUT of the now? show me someone who has ever managed to escape NOW.... honestly. is it possible to not be present? even daydreaming, even in a hallucination... it's all happening right now, in my experience. you will never, ever, ever be more present than you are. and trying to do so, is in part what makes the world act so crazy. all the attempts to "be present" are a sneaky way of trying to escape, actually. I would say its possible to not be very present because Im a darn sight more present than I used to be, but I agree that we have never escaped the now. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 14:02:50 GMT -5
The difficulty is that 'Truth at all costs' sounds good, it sounds grand, it sounds like a cool thing to be involved in, and it is what I would say if I wanted to sell an enlightenment book, ...but its actually really very meaningless. If you go to your neighbour and tell him that you want to experience more clarity, honesty and openness, they are likely to get a sense of what you mean. If you say you want 'Truth at all costs'....they would be like '''the truth of what at all costs?''. If its something not easily understood, then its really not worth wanting. When I talk about truth at all cost, I'm usually referring to the willingness to collapse illusions, so it means the truth about everything you believe. That's what "myth busting" is about. Is being willing to collapse illusions the same as being willing to release attachments? |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 14:06:17 GMT -5
Yeah I really do get the whole pointing thing which is why I dont really point. I cant see the point hehe. Actually, I do point, but just not very abstractly. What I mean about the connecting thing...hmmm....well, I can only talk about the way that I experience you and it is subjective of course. On one hand you seem like a likeable chap with good intentions and a good heart. But then I also get a sense of impersonalness more than I do personalness. So it feels like you are standing slightly apart, standing back, not wanting to get too involved. It comes across to me slightly as if you think you are part of a club. So I kind of think you organize in such a way which enables you to keep your head above the waters of unconsciousness. I can relate to that, but for me, I get greater reward out of being of service even if it means getting messy and getting dirty. I like to get involved, I like intimacy, I like to bring barriers down not put them up. Sounds like a description of a psychopath, haha. ;D I'm just not the personal nitty-gritty type, have no idea why I'm posting here, but definitely not to make friends, and I'm totally lacking the enigma kind of stamina that is required for helping others in giraffe spotting over weeks or even months. I'd rather keep it short and simple. Exacto knife style and then a nice big cup at my club... ;D HA! Yes, the exacto knife style is perfect and the myth buster style is perfect and the psychopath style is perfect. Otherwise it wouldn't be happening, and apparently it is. |
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), and tbh honest, I fail. Sometimes, what you say resonates with me, and at other times, it falls flat on its face in light of Truth. I accept all that, and I know you'd probably pass it off as something that people 'just do'. I just felt compelled to let you know that, for some reason.