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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 11:57:22 GMT -5
Okay, so if Being and Mind are linked, interwoven and non-separate, then Being, to you, isn't abstract , and so nothing is abstract (which would explain why several times, you've nearly chided me for saying something abstract  ). Just trying to pidgeonhole you is all, Andrew.  Haha thats okay. Yes, thats basically right, and yes, I find it a little hard to connect to people when they are trying to achieve something that isnt something that most humans have at least some kind of reference for. In the end, Im not really trying to help people experience something different, Im trying to help people find a way of experiencing more of what they know they like! We have all had moments of joy, and bliss, and love, and wonder, and clarity, and awe. We even know what its like to be present and to be secure. We just dont know how to do it consistently. Our conditioned approach is all wrong and to make matters work our conditioned approach tells us not to change our approach...d'oh! Personally, I could give a hoot about approach. I tend to be all about "Truth at all costs". And if that means that there is no Truth, then so be it. However, the Truth that I know now is quite often reflected in what folks around here call THIS, which is abstract, and which cannot be defined or expressed in words. It is not a search, but rather a realization. So, here I am, Andrew, simply trying to understand you, (and, btw, knowing that I'm not alone  ), and tbh honest, I fail. Sometimes, what you say resonates with me, and at other times, it falls flat on its face in light of Truth. I accept all that, and I know you'd probably pass it off as something that people 'just do'. I just felt compelled to let you know that, for some reason. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 11:59:12 GMT -5
Basically, that sounds like what we talk about here every day, though perhaps with the focus on making it personal and calling it something other than enlightenment. What Im talking about is a world of peace. .jpg) |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 12:18:58 GMT -5
Haha thats okay. Yes, thats basically right, and yes, I find it a little hard to connect to people when they are trying to achieve something that isnt something that most humans have at least some kind of reference for. In the end, Im not really trying to help people experience something different, Im trying to help people find a way of experiencing more of what they know they like! We have all had moments of joy, and bliss, and love, and wonder, and clarity, and awe. We even know what its like to be present and to be secure. We just dont know how to do it consistently. Our conditioned approach is all wrong and to make matters work our conditioned approach tells us not to change our approach...d'oh! Personally, I could give a hoot about approach. I tend to be all about "Truth at all costs". And if that means that there is no Truth, then so be it. However, the Truth that I know now is quite often reflected in what folks around here call THIS, which is abstract, and which cannot be defined or expressed in words. It is not a search, but rather a realization. So, here I am, Andrew, simply trying to understand you, (and, btw, knowing that I'm not alone ), and tbh honest, I fail. Sometimes, what you say resonates with me, and at other times, it falls flat on its face in light of Truth. I accept all that, and I know you'd probably pass it off as something that people 'just do'. I just felt compelled to let you know that, for some reason. The difficulty is that 'Truth at all costs' sounds good, it sounds grand, it sounds like a cool thing to be involved in, and it is what I would say if I wanted to sell an enlightenment book, ...but its actually really very meaningless. If you go to your neighbour and tell him that you want to experience more clarity, honesty and openness, they are likely to get a sense of what you mean. If you say you want 'Truth at all costs'....they would be like '''the truth of what at all costs?''. If its something not easily understood, then its really not worth wanting. I may be difficult to follow sometimes, but I can also state my interests extremely simply. Love, peace, joy, play, ease, creativity, passion, honesty, openness, clarity, fun, fulfillment. Can you tell me your interest simply? 'This' is not abstract at all. 'This' is just 'This'. There really isnt much more to say about it. |
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Post by exactamente on Jan 20, 2012 12:20:20 GMT -5
Whatever you think I'm pointing to is not 'it'. As it is said in the Daodejing, it cannot be talked about, what can be talked about is not it. And therefore it cannot be pointed to it either. The only thing that can be done is to stop the fruitless talking and pointing. That's where myth busters like enigma come into play.  What would connecting to people mean? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here... Yeah I really do get the whole pointing thing which is why I dont really point. I cant see the point hehe. Actually, I do point, but just not very abstractly. What I mean about the connecting thing...hmmm....well, I can only talk about the way that I experience you and it is subjective of course. On one hand you seem like a likeable chap with good intentions and a good heart. But then I also get a sense of impersonalness more than I do personalness. So it feels like you are standing slightly apart, standing back, not wanting to get too involved. It comes across to me slightly as if you think you are part of a club. So I kind of think you organize in such a way which enables you to keep your head above the waters of unconsciousness. I can relate to that, but for me, I get greater reward out of being of service even if it means getting messy and getting dirty. I like to get involved, I like intimacy, I like to bring barriers down not put them up. Sounds like a description of a psychopath, haha. ;D I'm just not the personal nitty-gritty type, have no idea why I'm posting here, but definitely not to make friends, and I'm totally lacking the enigma kind of stamina that is required for helping others in giraffe spotting over weeks or even months. I'd rather keep it short and simple. Exacto knife style and then a nice big cup at my club... ;D |
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Post by exactamente on Jan 20, 2012 12:24:15 GMT -5
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 12:25:29 GMT -5
Yeah I really do get the whole pointing thing which is why I dont really point. I cant see the point hehe. Actually, I do point, but just not very abstractly. What I mean about the connecting thing...hmmm....well, I can only talk about the way that I experience you and it is subjective of course. On one hand you seem like a likeable chap with good intentions and a good heart. But then I also get a sense of impersonalness more than I do personalness. So it feels like you are standing slightly apart, standing back, not wanting to get too involved. It comes across to me slightly as if you think you are part of a club. So I kind of think you organize in such a way which enables you to keep your head above the waters of unconsciousness. I can relate to that, but for me, I get greater reward out of being of service even if it means getting messy and getting dirty. I like to get involved, I like intimacy, I like to bring barriers down not put them up. Sounds like a description of a psychopath, haha. ;D I'm just not the personal nitty-gritty type, have no idea why I'm posting here, but definitely not to make friends, and I'm totally lacking the enigma kind of stamina that is required for helping others in giraffe spotting over weeks or even months. I'd rather keep it short and simple. Exacto knife style and then a nice big cup at my club... ;D Okay thats fair enough, and to be fair I probably am a bit mad. Cheers. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2012 12:30:46 GMT -5
Just to clarify, if I may, Andrew--to you, then, there is really nothing beyond (or 'prior to', or whatever) the three-dimensional universe. What you see is what you get. Is that right? I dunno abount the '3 dimensions' bit but if I just leave that aside, I would say that its not that there is nothing other than Mind/universe. There is Being and Mind but they are inextricably linked, interwoven and non-separate. The reason I say 'its all Mind' is to point away from the search for an enlightened state and to point away from the idea that its possible to stand on the riverbank and passively and neutrally and separately observe creation go by. Having said that, creating the illusion of standing on the bank can be a useful thing to do sometimes. I agree there isn't an "enlightened state", which would be a mind state, and really, I can't remember the last time somebody suggested there was. Also, since 'standing on the bank' may have been my idea, I never suggested it was passive and neutral, just a position of observation rather than mind identification. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 12:30:46 GMT -5
I may be difficult to follow sometimes, but I can also state my interests extremely simply. Love, peace, joy, play, ease, creativity, passion, honesty, openness, clarity, fun, fulfillment. Can you tell me your interest simply? 'Truth at all costs" sounds pretty simple to me.  If there isn't much more to say about it, it's probably because it IS abstract. Even the phrase, "'This' is just 'This'", in itself, and as a tautology, is abstract. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 12:43:02 GMT -5
I may be difficult to follow sometimes, but I can also state my interests extremely simply. Love, peace, joy, play, ease, creativity, passion, honesty, openness, clarity, fun, fulfillment. Can you tell me your interest simply? 'Truth at all costs" sounds pretty simple to me. If there isn't much more to say about it, it's probably because it IS abstract. Even the phrase, "'This' is just 'This'", in itself, and as a tautology, is abstract. The idea of 'Truth at all costs' might seem simple because it boggles the mind with its abstractness and lack of specific meaning. Its really not simple though because it has to be discussed. We have to say...'why does it have a capital T?' It implies something that only some people know. Yet everyone knows truthfulness, love, honesty, clarity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2012 12:45:45 GMT -5
'Truth at all costs" sounds pretty simple to me. it sounds simple to me too. but the concept of "Truth" is absolutely confounding (to me). Of course 'at all cost' has big implications and that's where the work is. The Truth then is what remains after defenestrating the rest. I've found the positive focus to be more helpful and obvious -- pre-conceptual awareness, non-abidance in mind, the natural state, This -- who are what am i? |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 12:46:47 GMT -5
I dunno abount the '3 dimensions' bit but if I just leave that aside, I would say that its not that there is nothing other than Mind/universe. There is Being and Mind but they are inextricably linked, interwoven and non-separate. The reason I say 'its all Mind' is to point away from the search for an enlightened state and to point away from the idea that its possible to stand on the riverbank and passively and neutrally and separately observe creation go by. Having said that, creating the illusion of standing on the bank can be a useful thing to do sometimes. I agree there isn't an "enlightened state", which would be a mind state, and really, I can't remember the last time somebody suggested there was. Also, since 'standing on the bank' may have been my idea, I never suggested it was passive and neutral, just a position of observation rather than mind identification. I would argue that it is mind identified but in a very subtle way though I agree that you have never suggested passivity or neutrality. I think there is an implication of somehow being able to somehow stand apart from our creative nature when this observation position is still a creative position. I find the word 'Peace' a little suggestive of an enlightened state. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 12:55:06 GMT -5
'Truth at all costs" sounds pretty simple to me. it sounds simple to me too. but the concept of "Truth" is absolutely confounding (to me). Of course 'at all cost' has big implications and that's where the work is. The Truth then is what remains after defenestrating the rest. I've found the positive focus to be more helpful and obvious -- pre-conceptual awareness, non-abidance in mind, the natural state, This -- who are what am i? Are you wanting to experience something that only enlightened people experience? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2012 13:01:38 GMT -5
it sounds simple to me too. but the concept of "Truth" is absolutely confounding (to me). Of course 'at all cost' has big implications and that's where the work is. The Truth then is what remains after defenestrating the rest. I've found the positive focus to be more helpful and obvious -- pre-conceptual awareness, non-abidance in mind, the natural state, This -- who are what am i? Are you wanting to experience something that only enlightened people experience? eh? no comprendo. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 13:06:37 GMT -5
'Truth at all costs" sounds pretty simple to me. If there isn't much more to say about it, it's probably because it IS abstract. Even the phrase, "'This' is just 'This'", in itself, and as a tautology, is abstract. The idea of 'Truth at all costs' might seem simple because it boggles the mind with its abstractness and lack of specific meaning. Its really not simple though because it has to be explained. Yet we all know truthfulness, love, honesty, clarity. 'Truth at all costs' doesn't boggle my mind, and any more than eating a ripe kumquat would boggle my mind. Why you think it has to be explained any further than that is probably why we're even having this discussion. For the record, 'Truth at all costs' isn't something that I teach, but the description of what drives me--it's rather like a calling, but then, I have reason to suspect that we're all called, though, since that's abstract, I suspect we would hit the wall with that discussion. Lasty, you say that 'we all know truthfulness, love, honesty, clarity.' Aren't those also abstract terms? Moreover, does everyone really know these things? If so, how do we know, if not revealed by something even more abstract than the terms themselves? |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 13:08:37 GMT -5
'Truth at all costs" sounds pretty simple to me. it sounds simple to me too. but the concept of "Truth" is absolutely confounding (to me). Of course 'at all cost' has big implications and that's where the work is. The Truth then is what remains after defenestrating the rest. I've found the positive focus to be more helpful and obvious -- pre-conceptual awareness, non-abidance in mind, the natural state, This -- who are what am i? Indeed, those suffice as approaches that work very well for me, too. |
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), and tbh honest, I fail. Sometimes, what you say resonates with me, and at other times, it falls flat on its face in light of Truth. I accept all that, and I know you'd probably pass it off as something that people 'just do'. I just felt compelled to let you know that, for some reason.
