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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2011 10:25:40 GMT -5
The koan, if I recall, was about how to teach the cigarette man. am i not?...I understand that you said zendancer was not giving a koan...and that he was referencing a koan in a story...I am talking about the koan as YOU commented on it here lol The koan was about teaching. It wasn't, itself, an attempt to teach something. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2011 10:28:31 GMT -5
By the way...you guys know who is a budha here?....acewall...and you folks pay very little attention to that diamond in your midst ;-) If you're doing what I suspect you're doing with Acewall, I'm gonna be very non-plussed. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 11:04:31 GMT -5
here is another question, do you think that an enlightened enigma or zendancer are effected in any way by someone saying they are enlightened or not enlightened?.... what is an enlightened enigma or zendancer? i don't see a difference, other than color of delusion, between someone who claims they are enlightened and someone who claims they are not enlightened. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 5, 2011 13:06:34 GMT -5
Just a note about koans. One does not have to be enlightened or egoless to create a koan. A koan is simply an existential question that cannot be answered by mind (intellectually) . The Rinzai Zen sect formalized the use of koans as a way of checking on a student's progress. There are about 1800 formal koans with several thousand variations of secondary checking questions. The most important koans, however, are probably the informal issues that arise in peoples' lives. "Should I stay with my lover or leave?" "What is the purpose of my life?" "Why did my parents treat me the way they did?" "Who am I?"
A koan is answered through the body, which is another way of saying through no-mind. Koans can be Christian or Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim. Zen Master Seung Sahn once conducted a joint Buddhist/Christian retreat at the Abbey of Gethsemani, and all of the koans he used were oriented toward Christians. "Where is Jesus Christ this moment?" "Some people say that Jesus was a pacifist because he said to turn the other cheek. Other people say that he was an activist. When he turned over the tables of the money-changers, was this the act of a pacifist or an activist?"
Some people use koans as a meditative technique for stopping the mind or to escape the mind. Some people have no interest in them at all. The Soto Zen Sect, recognizing the possibility of getting attached to koans, rarely uses them, and emphasizes "just sitting" instead.
Resolving a koan sometimes results in a breakthrough in understanding, or understanding something at a much deeper level than mind. Seeing through a single koan can sometimes eliminate an entire pattern of thought. The old pattern of thought simply never occurs again.
Koans are often used as a form of dharma combat in which students or teachers test each other's understanding. Some Zen Masters, like Seung Sahn, have traveled all over the world searching for other masters to duel with. Layman Pan'g, as another example, walked around China a thousand years ago engaging other masters in dharma combat, and their recorded dialogues are fascinating. This kind of combat is a kind of high-level play. After one contest with a master, Layman Pan'g said, "D**M! I blew it just now trying to be too smart." Layman Pan'g's entire family was reportedly enlightened, and reading about their shenanigans is a real hoot. Pan'g and his daughter were always playing with each other, existentially.
Why would a master seek out a master to duel with? Just for fun. Why do masters throw out bait? Just for fun. They are, to use the words of Peter Mathiessen, "....at play in the fields of the Lord."
Why do we poke each other on this website? To see how attached people are to their ideas, to teach, to learn, to test, to play, etc. This is what Reality does, and this is what we are.
Some people reach a point where they think that there is nothing left to learn. Other people discover that there is no end to what can be learned. Those who become attached to their level olf attainment are like the cigarette-man. How can you teach someone who won't listen? You can't.
If there is no attachment, then one remains open-minded, humble, and in a state of not-knowing "flow."
In some Zen traditions people who have reached a certain level of attainment have to undergo formal dharma combat. They give a short dharma talk and then take questions from the audience. Anyone is free to challenge them in any way. The community then judges their answers and interactions to determine whether they have sufficient clarity to teach others.
Someone once asked a master, "Are you enlightened?" He replied, "I won't say! I won't say!"
Another master answered, "Someone should wash out your mouth with soap and water!"
Another master responded, "A second offense is not permitted."
What were these masters pointing to? Just another koan to play with. LOL
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Post by onehandclapping on Sept 5, 2011 14:03:08 GMT -5
Nice post ZD.
This has definitely been interesting catching up on all of the going on's of my favorite website. This tath guy is a real character. It will be fun to watch and see if he keeps his aggressive pointing up amid the poking.
Tath--I will say from experience that sometimes after the initial shift, our minds back door us into thinking we are ready to teach because we "got it" now. It takes most folks many years before they are able to be clear enough to teach others. Becoming completely free of the idea of a doer usually isn't an overnight process like the shift of perception and recognition of ones true nature. I know a couple folks who wrestled with it for more than a decade. They too thought they we going to teach right out of the box. It was only with further reflection or maybe like in my case, they had others poke them so hard, that they realized they we not ready to even attempt to teach.
Maybe you are different and have completely lost all sense of doer-ship. And if that is the case then I would suggest maybe giving it some time for your words to catch up because they do not transmit that sentiment.
Food for thought...
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 14:06:11 GMT -5
Tathagata: quite often, we fall into our own traps! What does that mean exactly LOL.... Guys with all due respect...other than some stuff zendancer says almost everything that goes on here has nothing whatsoever to do about enlightenment or is helping you get one step closer... Which is fine...nothing wrong with making judgment calls and selections etc...but all these things will not make you enlightened... And you labor under the idea that there is a me to be trapped...nothing wrong with this, and it certainly isn't going to create a me to be trapped LOL...but here is the problem...the more time you spend categorizing me or the things I say, the less time you are turning inward instead of outward...and the more time you spend on outside phenomena the more story you create...I am here to undo not to do...and frankly there is very little effort or attention being spent on undoing instead of creating more illusionary self...there...did I successfully trap my no self? also...you guys just glossed right over the acewall comment...you guys generally ignore him...Becuase attention on him will undo you and none of you want to be undone...at least very few of you do anyway...most of you really really want to keep philosophizing and categorizing etc...you create ever finer and more subtle dillusions that in turn justify and create more dillusion...you are addicted to the little thought paradigm you create for yourselves and as a result you cling to practices or no practices that help you keep your illusion of choice, and reject the practices offered to you that will undo your illusion as the ravings of a silly boy that has lost his way LOL. Here is a technique...be without judgment...try it if you dare...but try it earnestly or don't try it at all. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 14:13:45 GMT -5
By the way...you guys know who is a budha here?....acewall...and you folks pay very little attention to that diamond in your midst ;-) If you're doing what I suspect you're doing with Acewall, I'm gonna be very non-plussed. Who is there to be nonplussed enigma? |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 14:20:41 GMT -5
here is another question, do you think that an enlightened enigma or zendancer are effected in any way by someone saying they are enlightened or not enlightened?.... what is an enlightened enigma or zendancer? i don't see a difference, other than color of delusion, between someone who claims they are enlightened and someone who claims they are not enlightened. That was a comment that has some undoing in it LOL... |
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Post by onehandclapping on Sept 5, 2011 14:35:29 GMT -5
/q .so enigma's advice to be effortless is wonderful advice...and enigma is eminently qualified to give this advice...he has mastered it, enigma doesn't need enlightenment, Becuase he is happy and content already...later zendancer came in with concerns that I was trying to upset the applecart and teach something...I wasn't "trying" to do anything. What I was doing was telling ivory that if he wanted happiness effortless was enough, but if he wanted truth ...if he wanted enlightenment, he was not at the time for effortlessness yet..." "Effortlessness will make you happy...attending the actual and many other techniques will make you aware of your oneness...but these are not enlightenment...and if you knew what enlightenment was you would not want it...that being said there are some people who want to end that mystery with experience, and others who can be content without ever entering into that mystery...both are of equal worth. It's stuff like this and much of this post that I quoted from that make people question your clarity. You seem to feel the need to clarify and defend your position. Along with making a difference between what you talk about and what enigma or ZD talk about. These actions by you are an example of what I was saying and what ZD talked about in the cigorette man post. You seem entrenched similar to the gentleman who waves a stone around and rates people. You might do some self inquiry as to why you words would be perceived this way. Cause I don't remember ever reading something the Buddha said or even nisargatta since my shift, and being confused as I am at times with your words. |
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2011 15:27:44 GMT -5
...did I successfully trap my no self? You seem to be neck-deep in enlightenment alligators! |
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Post by therealfake on Sept 5, 2011 16:17:12 GMT -5
...did I successfully trap my no self? You seem to be neck-deep in enlightenment alligators! Wonderfully terrifying Buddha natured creatures, alligators are... Their 'mindlessness' makes them the ultimate hunters and killers. The beautiful nature of an alligator is it's lack of self importance. So they don't have much of a taste for enlightenment. But if Buddha gets close enough to the river, they'll gladly make a meal out of him. Peace |
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2011 18:56:02 GMT -5
Someone once asked a master, "Are you enlightened?" He replied, "I won't say! I won't say!" Another master answered, "Someone should wash out your mouth with soap and water!" Another master responded, "A second offense is not permitted." What were these masters pointing to? Just another koan to play with. LOL I like those answers. Especially washing out your mouth with soap. Hehe. When I see that focus I think 'Confusion and distraction.' |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 22:44:56 GMT -5
Someone once asked a master, "Are you enlightened?" He replied, "I won't say! I won't say!" Another master answered, "Someone should wash out your mouth with soap and water!" Another master responded, "A second offense is not permitted." What were these masters pointing to? Just another koan to play with. LOL I like those answers. Especially washing out your mouth with soap. Hehe. When I see that focus I think 'Confusion and distraction.' Who is thinking? Also..was the first offense the asking or the response you quoted especially liking? |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 22:58:50 GMT -5
/q .so enigma's advice to be effortless is wonderful advice...and enigma is eminently qualified to give this advice...he has mastered it, enigma doesn't need enlightenment, Becuase he is happy and content already...later zendancer came in with concerns that I was trying to upset the applecart and teach something...I wasn't "trying" to do anything. What I was doing was telling ivory that if he wanted happiness effortless was enough, but if he wanted truth ...if he wanted enlightenment, he was not at the time for effortlessness yet..." "Effortlessness will make you happy...attending the actual and many other techniques will make you aware of your oneness...but these are not enlightenment...and if you knew what enlightenment was you would not want it...that being said there are some people who want to end that mystery with experience, and others who can be content without ever entering into that mystery...both are of equal worth. It's stuff like this and much of this post that I quoted from that make people question your clarity. You seem to feel the need to clarify and defend your position. Along with making a difference between what you talk about and what enigma or ZD talk about. These actions by you are an example of what I was saying and what ZD talked about in the cigorette man post. You seem entrenched similar to the gentleman who waves a stone around and rates people. You might do some self inquiry as to why you words would be perceived this way. Cause I don't remember ever reading something the Buddha said or even nisargatta since my shift, and being confused as I am at times with your words. Clarify yes, defend no...and by clarify we mean what was said versus what was thought was said...there is no position, define the position I have taken LOL...where is this position that I am entrenched in ? which leads to the next question: Where does the "seem" originate from in your sentence? "You seem entrenched similar to the the gentleman who waves a stone around and rates people"....where does the seem come from...what is the source of the seeming and what is the source of that source? |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 6, 2011 0:01:28 GMT -5
Just a note about koans.
If there is no attachment, then one remains open-minded, humble, and in a state of not-knowing "flow." [/quote] Zendancer, If there is no attachment...if all attachment has been let go, including the attachment to oneself, how does one REMAIN anything....and if no attachment to yourself or your mind remains, how does one be open minded? |
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