Shift happens...

[dwbh1953]

Hi everyone many of us have probably seen that bumper sticker that says ..Shift happens..How true is that.

I have a question for the group about awakening. When this question about how to awaken is brought up in talks, groups etc the basic answer I have heard is when it happens it happens and that there is really nothing you can do to bring about awakening except to simply wait until it happens. You know you hope you are one of the lucky ones to awake. I know I have used the same answer to people asking me about awakening and I normally say it happens when it happens.

Now when you ask a few self professed awaken teachers what is awakening like the common answer you have is that a energtic shift happens. Something that is unknown to the mind shits the prespective to the I am consciouness of Who you are. Tony Parsons tells his story of just a normal day of walking across a park and in a moment everything stopped, the world that he knew of simply stopped and he saw for the first time that he as a person did not exisit. Many other teachers will tell us a similar story.

Now to my question folks like Nisargadatta Maharaj tells his story where his awakening only took 3 years, he also says that some people are more ripe than others. Nisargadatta Maharaj tells folks to simply keep going back to Who am I, to the I am and in time a shift or awakening will happen.

Now does anyone know what this shift is? I hear time and time again that you cannot reach awakening by your mind but yet when folks like Nisargadatta Maharaj speaks in time you will get it then it seems to me that this shift can be speeded up by self inquiry.

So the question I have is what is this shift, where does it come from, is there anything we can realy do except to wait and see and hope it happens to us?

Hopefully for some great feedback on this.
Randyji

[lightmystic]

Hey Randiji,

Great topic. Great questions.

I make a distinction between Awakening and Enlightenment. I call Awakening the realization that one IS Awareness, and Enlightenment the understanding that, not only is one Awareness, but there is nothing except Awareness. There IS no separation of anything between anything. Enlightenment, the way I talk about it, is often described as the disappearance of the individual.

I relate to Enlightenment and Awakening the way Richard Rose talks about it the best. To paraphrase, Enlightenment/Awakening is an accident, so it cannot be "achieved", it has to happen on it's own, but one can make themselves highly accident prone. Thus, these are things that one can very much do something about. It's simply getting to the bottom of one's resistances so the resistances can go and one can be clearer about what is going on. When there is enough clarity, there is simply the Acceptance of oneself AS Awareness and that is Awakening. So simple, so natural, it can even be confusing at first whether it was real. Awakening puts one in a position, however, where they have the safety to start to examine the nature of their existence in a way that just wasn't possible before, because the safety wasn't there.
As it gets clearer and clearer one's connection to everything, at some point, the individual disappears.
I was walking around feeling unified with everything for a while before the shift into "no-self" happened. And that was that. That cannot be confused, it's so all encompassing and such a huge difference. It happened on it's own, but usually does not until one is ready. Thus, getting freer and freer of confusion by examining resistances is essentially the method to becoming accident prone. There are many ways it's talked about, and many approaches, including self inquiry, but it's all essentially the same process, the same "thing" happening. There are plenty of exceptions where people get "zapped", but it seems that most seekers are going to build up to it. I think even those who get zapped build up to it, but they weren't thinking about it so weren't necessarily realizing that that was what was happening.

The shift itself is change in relationship to everything, and this brings natural shifts in functioning. It's like growing up and orphan and discovering that the woman you've been talking to is actually your long lost mother. Same person, but this completely changes the relationship to them. Assuming those are happy circumstances, it also has positive changes on your life, even though the woman was always the same woman. The shift into Enlightenment is the same thing.

The shift itself, on a practical level, is an energetic shift. It also affects the physiology (it must or it wouldn't be a real experience). It actually changes the way the physiology functions. And these changes seem to increase more and more as time goes on.

A lot of what determines it depends on one's willingness to look at these frightening things. This willingness involves a serious amount of drive. For those that it happens spontaneously for, they seem to be building up to it slowly, which is certainly not the most direct way.

[dwbh1953]

Jan 23, 2009 16:00:23 GMT -5 lightmystic said:

Hey Randiji,

Great topic. Great questions.

I make a distinction between Awakening and Enlightenment. I call Awakening the realization that one IS Awareness, and Enlightenment the understanding that, not only is one Awareness, but there is nothing except Awareness. There IS no separation of anything between anything. Enlightenment, the way I talk about it, is often described as the disappearance of the individual.

I relate to Enlightenment and Awakening the way Richard Rose talks about it the best. To paraphrase, Enlightenment/Awakening is an accident, so it cannot be "achieved", it has to happen on it's own, but one can make themselves highly accident prone. Thus, these are things that one can very much do something about. It's simply getting to the bottom of one's resistances so the resistances can go and one can be clearer about what is going on. When there is enough clarity, there is simply the Acceptance of oneself AS Awareness and that is Awakening. So simple, so natural, it can even be confusing at first whether it was real. Awakening puts one in a position, however, where they have the safety to start to examine the nature of their existence in a way that just wasn't possible before, because the safety wasn't there.
As it gets clearer and clearer one's connection to everything, at some point, the individual disappears.
I was walking around feeling unified with everything for a while before the shift into "no-self" happened. And that was that. That cannot be confused, it's so all encompassing and such a huge difference. It happened on it's own, but usually does not until one is ready. Thus, getting freer and freer of confusion by examining resistances is essentially the method to becoming accident prone. There are many ways it's talked about, and many approaches, including self inquiry, but it's all essentially the same process, the same "thing" happening. There are plenty of exceptions where people get "zapped", but it seems that most seekers are going to build up to it. I think even those who get zapped build up to it, but they weren't thinking about it so weren't necessarily realizing that that was what was happening.

The shift itself is change in relationship to everything, and this brings natural shifts in functioning. It's like growing up and orphan and discovering that the woman you've been talking to is actually your long lost mother. Same person, but this completely changes the relationship to them. Assuming those are happy circumstances, it also has positive changes on your life, even though the woman was always the same woman. The shift into Enlightenment is the same thing.

The shift itself, on a practical level, is an energetic shift. It also affects the physiology (it must or it wouldn't be a real experience). It actually changes the way the physiology functions. And these changes seem to increase more and more as time goes on.

A lot of what determines it depends on one's willingness to look at these frightening things. This willingness involves a serious amount of drive. For those that it happens spontaneously for, they seem to be building up to it slowly, which is certainly not the most direct way.

Thank you LM that was a very good explanation and I certainly agree with what you wrote. However I am more interested in the actual mechanics involved. I really believe that since this is a energetic shift that there must be a way of making it happen.
One of many examples is acupuncture at first many thought that this was not a science at all but like witchcraft or something but as time went by with the body being mapped with labels on the energy centers etc then not only did people begin to accept it acupuncture took a well deserve placed in modern medicine.
One of the main reason for this is that a result that could be repeated over and over again which gave it much credibility.
There are many other examples but this gives you a good idea where I am coming from.

Now lets take awakening and Enlightenment. My gut feeling is that there must be a way to bring about awakening and enlightenment .
Since we are talking about a shift which I feel most of us would agree that a shift happens then something is causing the shift.
Now we can see it is no one but you that causes the shift which would be true as Nisargadatta Maharaj would say that you yourself is the real guru. I feel that I am talking about a future happening where whatever needs to be done is clearly mapped and all we need to do is follow the map. Something inside me tells me there is a mechanical way to go about this. It would be very interesting to use some of the advance bio-feedback we have today and investigate awakening. the problem is you can use bio-feedback on awaken people and they would give you data based on the state or being ness they are in and it is probable that the data would be more or less the same among those that are awake.
This could give us some baseline info where one could take a non awaken person and through different experiment have them reproduce the same data however it would not necessary make a person awake. But what if we were able to somehow have people that are not awake use some of this bio-feedback equipment such as they have devices that you can wear on your body and keep in memory all your vitals, brainwaves etc and then when these people woke up you would have the data at the precise moment of them waking up. Then the next step would be simply to reproduce this data in a non awake person and sees what happens.

If we could get a grant for this it would really be possible to make this happen. We would need around 25 volunteers that agreed to be wired up for lets say 30 days and then send them to some of the best teachers on this planet that are known for creating a space for people to wake up. Tony Parsons, Sailor Bob Adamson are 2 that come to mind and then just see what happens.

Now all we need is a great grant writer and some institutes to send the grant proposal to.
This may sound to be too far out but keep in mind energetic shifts can and do allow to be reproduced given the right stimuli.

Randyji

[Morrie]

LM, this is an interesting topic, I was hoping you could provide some more info on this. When you say realization effects physiological functions, could you provide some specifics. Does it affect your skin tone, your appetite, bathroom habits, body weight, sleeping habits, breathing, etc.? Does it affect sensory perceptions...are sights, sounds, smells experienced somewhat differently?

Regards, Morrie

Jan 23, 2009 16:00:23 GMT -5 lightmystic said:

It also affects the physiology (it must or it wouldn't be a real experience). It actually changes the way the physiology functions. And these changes seem to increase more and more as time goes on.

[souley]

I dont know anything about bio-feedback but generally I think if science cant figure out what to eat to stay fit, we cant possibly reproduce states in the complex relations of body and mind and everything else that remains a complete mystery? But it would be incredibly interesting to study the changes occuring in the shift nonetheless, I would assume nothing like it have been done.

Since I have not awaken my knowledge about this shift is limited or none, but is it so much different from a regular "insight"? Just that it is much more profound? We have insights regularly, they are just much smaller, and we cant control these just as we cannot control awakening. I think I would agree with LM and other teachers that we can increase the odds of this insight to happen, but I would rather have the view that we remove all the obstacles, and once they are removed the insight will definately happen, since it already exists in you. The difference being in the probability, for me it is a limiting thought that you somehow could remove all obstacles, get a very high level of awareness, and then there would still be a chance of awakening not happening. But this is very much the same as what you are saying.

I cant say what will happen in the future but I think the tools available for the seeker could improve greatly, it is as of now very much limited to the traditional ways of the guru and study. More experiments could be invented, and interactive tools to show peoply their true nature, and other tools to help them stay with it until realization occurs. Especially the early stages of seeking could be made easier, helping people to realize that there is something more to life and triggering the feeling of awareness.

[dwbh1953]

Jan 23, 2009 17:49:58 GMT -5 souley said:

I dont know anything about bio-feedback but generally I think if science cant figure out what to eat to stay fit, we cant possibly reproduce states in the complex relations of body and mind and everything else that remains a complete mystery? But it would be incredibly interesting to study the changes occuring in the shift nonetheless, I would assume nothing like it have been done.

Since I have not awaken my knowledge about this shift is limited or none, but is it so much different from a regular "insight"? Just that it is much more profound? We have insights regularly, they are just much smaller, and we cant control these just as we cannot control awakening. I think I would agree with LM and other teachers that we can increase the odds of this insight to happen, but I would rather have the view that we remove all the obstacles, and once they are removed the insight will definately happen, since it already exists in you. The difference being in the probability, for me it is a limiting thought that you somehow could remove all obstacles, get a very high level of awareness, and then there would still be a chance of awakening not happening. But this is very much the same as what you are saying.

I cant say what will happen in the future but I think the tools available for the seeker could improve greatly, it is as of now very much limited to the traditional ways of the guru and study. More experiments could be invented, and interactive tools to show peoply their true nature, and other tools to help them stay with it until realization occurs. Especially the early stages of seeking could be made easier, helping people to realize that there is something more to life and triggering the feeling of awareness.

Hi Souley,

Yes that is what I was looking for tools, you hit the nail on the head. I would not be surprised that if the CIA, NSA etc have some of these tools already of course they were not designed for what we are speaking about but could be used for this purpose or maybe I am just watching too much of the new show Fringe. Fringe science has always been close to my heart.

Awakening is easy not hard at all. To be honest all awakening is that when you no without no doubt that you are the being the Self behind the curtains, that you are that which you seek when you know this as much as you know your sitting in a chair then your awaken, full liberation is different this is when the you as you know yourself completely disappear you are gone as a person forever.
The world as you know it collapses on you and only you are there.
Peace
Randji

[anonji]

"Shift" is an apt description of what takes place when one "awakens." To me the Shift represents a change of orientation in consciousness. For most, the focus of consciousness is on the thought-based life. Our conditioning and beliefs are on that side, and we filter normal experience through them. But the spiritual life is on the other side, the side where simple sensory experience is the norm. The "Shift" is when we let go of our conditioning and beliefs to find the joy in simple being.

It usually happens that we are reluctant to let go of the "knowing" side of life unless it becomes so dysfunctional that is causes us pain and misery. All the techniques in the world do not help if we are comfortable with that side of life. Meditation and other techniques may give us a feel for the spiritual side, but we always snap back, unless we have some motivation to let go. It is always difficult to let go of the known, and herein lies the crux of the spiritual journey.

I used a particular method to awaken, but then I was in dire straits and letting go seemed to be the only option. Others have used this method but the above observation applies. Those in a desperate way can let go, while the general seeker will only use it as an incremental technique. The incremental approach will eventually put one against a wall, where "letting go" will be the only way to continue. Either way, one has to let go of one's current life to find a life on the other side.

-- anon

[dwbh1953]

Jan 24, 2009 10:35:07 GMT -5 anonji said:

"Shift" is an apt description of what takes place when one "awakens." To me the Shift represents a change of orientation in consciousness. For most, the focus of consciousness is on the thought-based life. Our conditioning and beliefs are on that side, and we filter normal experience through them. But the spiritual life is on the other side, the side where simple sensory experience is the norm. The "Shift" is when we let go of our conditioning and beliefs to find the joy in simple being.

It usually happens that we are reluctant to let go of the "knowing" side of life unless it becomes so dysfunctional that is causes us pain and misery. All the techniques in the world do not help if we are comfortable with that side of life. Meditation and other techniques may give us a feel for the spiritual side, but we always snap back, unless we have some motivation to let go. It is always difficult to let go of the known, and herein lies the crux of the spiritual journey.

I used a particular method to awaken, but then I was in dire straits and letting go seemed to be the only option. Others have used this method but the above observation applies. Those in a desperate way can let go, while the general seeker will only use it as an incremental technique. The incremental approach will eventually put one against a wall, where "letting go" will be the only way to continue. Either way, one has to let go of one's current life to find a life on the other side.

-- anon

These is a lot of truth in your words thanks for sharing
Randyji

[lightmystic]

Hey Randiji,


Thank you LM that was a very good explanation and I certainly agree with what you wrote. However I am more interested in the actual mechanics involved. I really believe that since this is a energetic shift that there must be a way of making it happen.

There is. When I say that this process of letting go increases the probabilities, it's not talking about remote probabilities. You can increase them enough that it is all but certain, certain to happen by accident . For example, if the probability was increased so that you had an even 20% chance at every moment of slipping into it, how many weeks can it really be before that probability become a reality? If you have a 98% chance, at every moment, it's still technically a probability, but practically the problem solves itself. This is the value of burning off misconceptions.

Looking back, this is exactly what happened to me, I just didn't know necessarily to trust it or that it would pay off. And others that were already Awake or Enlightened played an invaluable role. I could not have done it without their support, but I would never have had to. That was not my path. Life provides all the support we need at every instant if we let it.

One of many examples is acupuncture at first many thought that this was not a science at all but like witchcraft or something but as time went by with the body being mapped with labels on the energy centers etc then not only did people begin to accept it acupuncture took a well deserve placed in modern medicine.
One of the main reason for this is that a result that could be repeated over and over again which gave it much credibility.
There are many other examples but this gives you a good idea where I am coming from.

I see what you're getting at, but it doesn't work that way, for reason I'll explain in response below.

Now lets take awakening and Enlightenment. My gut feeling is that there must be a way to bring about awakening and enlightenment .

Make no mistake, I'm definitely saying there is, for sure, a way, which is the one I allude to above and in my previous post.


Since we are talking about a shift which I feel most of us would agree that a shift happens then something is causing the shift.
Now we can see it is no one but you that causes the shift which would be true as Nisargadatta Maharaj would say that you yourself is the real guru. I feel that I am talking about a future happening where whatever needs to be done is clearly mapped and all we need to do is follow the map. Something inside me tells me there is a mechanical way to go about this.

Well, it can be said to be a mechanical process in a sense. Whenever there is resistance, just allow it be. Simple. Over and over again, and that transforms every aspect of life. The problem is this puts someone forever out of their comfort zone. The only way this process actually can even become safe enough to be comfortable is through Enlightenment itself.

It's not that "something makes the shift happen." Spiritual gravity takes care of the shift if one allows themself to fall. It's more like what ideas and limitations are in the way of letting that natural shift occur? You see what I'm saying? All things being equal, it's harder NOT to Wake Up. But all things are very much not equal, because the fear of annihilation from letting go is so great...

The problem with that path is that, because everything is connected, the ideas of what isn't connected are arbitrary. Everyone has a different set of ideas about what's not connected. To the point where there can be an opposite set of ideas talked about in terms of what isn't limited and this can almost make Enlightenment sound like diametrically opposing things. For one who believes they are limited by trying to have to control everything there is the description of no doer. For those who think they are limited by being victims by life there is the understanding of being the Creator of one's reality and the full responsibility of everything in it. So which is it? It's both of course, depending on the conceptual limitation that one has. That's why everyone's path is uniquely theirs, and why people resonate more or less with different teachers.

Still, Enlightened guidance is invaluable to the process, but it's not an objective one, so it's really the kind of thing where individual attention and guidance is needed. And, ultimately, it's only by listening and following one's own inner knowing that's going to do it.

Also, there's no specific order that these misconceptions about the nature of existence unwind. One person's misconception about sexuality in life might be what starts them on the path, while that same issue might be the very thing that, when reconciled, brings about another person's full Enlightenment. Hell, there could be an extremely Enlightened person that never actually fully deals with their misconceptions about sexuality in life, because it was never required. That kind of thing happens all the time with every sort of issue. Let go of enough issues and Awakening and Enlightenment will happen, but there are still plenty of issues after Enlightenment, although they seems to reduce much more quickly over time, especially if one still recognizes that there's so much more to have. The order that these issues need to be released for each person are different, and we don't decide that. We don't have to, that's not our function. Life always chooses that for us. That's what makes it so simple in essence.

It would be very interesting to use some of the advance bio-feedback we have today and investigate awakening. the problem is you can use bio-feedback on awaken people and they would give you data based on the state or being ness they are in and it is probable that the data would be more or less the same among those that are awake.
This could give us some baseline info where one could take a non awaken person and through different experiment have them reproduce the same data however it would not necessary make a person awake. But what if we were able to somehow have people that are not awake use some of this bio-feedback equipment such as they have devices that you can wear on your body and keep in memory all your vitals, brainwaves etc and then when these people woke up you would have the data at the precise moment of them waking up. Then the next step would be simply to reproduce this data in a non awake person and sees what happens.

It's not the biofeedback that produces the Enlightenment, it's the other way around. I think it was David Hawkins who adeptly pointed out - examination of the brain of an Enlightened being are going to show an undercurrent of a lot more release of happy hormone (in a similar way that drugs do in people), but that's not going to show scientists what the source of that happiness is.

We could give people drugs and get the same effect but that will not make them Enlightened. The same goes for all brain and biological functioning. Also, Enlightenment creates various biological tendencies but it's not going to be the exact same for everyone. It's like saying "what is the best diet for everyone?" Well there are some common themes, but different people need different things, and then accounting for gender and age and body type and so forth, it's not a one answer thing. That goes for Enlightenment responses just as much as it goes for diet.

If we could get a grant for this it would really be possible to make this happen. We would need around 25 volunteers that agreed to be wired up for lets say 30 days and then send them to some of the best teachers on this planet that are known for creating a space for people to wake up. Tony Parsons, Sailor Bob Adamson are 2 that come to mind and then just see what happens.
Well, there is a guy I know who is already starting to do this. He is Enlightened himself (although he has never said that directly) and he is trying to do exactly what you're talking about. He is from the Transcendental Mediation movement and so he also focuses a lot on the effects of Transcendental Mediation technique, which is a useful spiritual practice. This meditation cultures the style of functioning that becomes constant once Awakening happens.

You can check out his website:

www.fredtravis.com/science.html

[lightmystic]

The quoted part below is exactly the point I was trying to make (well, one of them - but brilliantly said here. Just perfect.)

In terms of the rest of your post. Just great. Wonderfully said and an exact description of my experience too....

Jan 24, 2009 10:35:07 GMT -5 anonji said:

I used a particular method to awaken, but then I was in dire straits and letting go seemed to be the only option. Others have used this method but the above observation applies. Those in a desperate way can let go, while the general seeker will only use it as an incremental technique. The incremental approach will eventually put one against a wall, where "letting go" will be the only way to continue. Either way, one has to let go of one's current life to find a life on the other side.

-- anon

[dwbh1953]

Jan 24, 2009 16:20:10 GMT -5 lightmystic said:

Hey Randiji,


Thank you LM that was a very good explanation and I certainly agree with what you wrote. However I am more interested in the actual mechanics involved. I really believe that since this is a energetic shift that there must be a way of making it happen.

There is. When I say that this process of letting go increases the probabilities, it's not talking about remote probabilities. You can increase them enough that it is all but certain, certain to happen by accident . For example, if the probability was increased so that you had an even 20% chance at every moment of slipping into it, how many weeks can it really be before that probability become a reality? If you have a 98% chance, at every moment, it's still technically a probability, but practically the problem solves itself. This is the value of burning off misconceptions.

Looking back, this is exactly what happened to me, I just didn't know necessarily to trust it or that it would pay off. And others that were already Awake or Enlightened played an invaluable role. I could not have done it without their support, but I would never have had to. That was not my path. Life provides all the support we need at every instant if we let it.

One of many examples is acupuncture at first many thought that this was not a science at all but like witchcraft or something but as time went by with the body being mapped with labels on the energy centers etc then not only did people begin to accept it acupuncture took a well deserve placed in modern medicine.
One of the main reason for this is that a result that could be repeated over and over again which gave it much credibility.
There are many other examples but this gives you a good idea where I am coming from.

I see what you're getting at, but it doesn't work that way, for reason I'll explain in response below.

Now lets take awakening and Enlightenment. My gut feeling is that there must be a way to bring about awakening and enlightenment .

Make no mistake, I'm definitely saying there is, for sure, a way, which is the one I allude to above and in my previous post.


Since we are talking about a shift which I feel most of us would agree that a shift happens then something is causing the shift.
Now we can see it is no one but you that causes the shift which would be true as Nisargadatta Maharaj would say that you yourself is the real guru. I feel that I am talking about a future happening where whatever needs to be done is clearly mapped and all we need to do is follow the map. Something inside me tells me there is a mechanical way to go about this.

Well, it can be said to be a mechanical process in a sense. Whenever there is resistance, just allow it be. Simple. Over and over again, and that transforms every aspect of life. The problem is this puts someone forever out of their comfort zone. The only way this process actually can even become safe enough to be comfortable is through Enlightenment itself.

It's not that "something makes the shift happen." Spiritual gravity takes care of the shift if one allows themself to fall. It's more like what ideas and limitations are in the way of letting that natural shift occur? You see what I'm saying? All things being equal, it's harder NOT to Wake Up. But all things are very much not equal, because the fear of annihilation from letting go is so great...

The problem with that path is that, because everything is connected, the ideas of what isn't connected are arbitrary. Everyone has a different set of ideas about what's not connected. To the point where there can be an opposite set of ideas talked about in terms of what isn't limited and this can almost make Enlightenment sound like diametrically opposing things. For one who believes they are limited by trying to have to control everything there is the description of no doer. For those who think they are limited by being victims by life there is the understanding of being the Creator of one's reality and the full responsibility of everything in it. So which is it? It's both of course, depending on the conceptual limitation that one has. That's why everyone's path is uniquely theirs, and why people resonate more or less with different teachers.

Still, Enlightened guidance is invaluable to the process, but it's not an objective one, so it's really the kind of thing where individual attention and guidance is needed. And, ultimately, it's only by listening and following one's own inner knowing that's going to do it.

Also, there's no specific order that these misconceptions about the nature of existence unwind. One person's misconception about sexuality in life might be what starts them on the path, while that same issue might be the very thing that, when reconciled, brings about another person's full Enlightenment. Hell, there could be an extremely Enlightened person that never actually fully deals with their misconceptions about sexuality in life, because it was never required. That kind of thing happens all the time with every sort of issue. Let go of enough issues and Awakening and Enlightenment will happen, but there are still plenty of issues after Enlightenment, although they seems to reduce much more quickly over time, especially if one still recognizes that there's so much more to have. The order that these issues need to be released for each person are different, and we don't decide that. We don't have to, that's not our function. Life always chooses that for us. That's what makes it so simple in essence.

It would be very interesting to use some of the advance bio-feedback we have today and investigate awakening. the problem is you can use bio-feedback on awaken people and they would give you data based on the state or being ness they are in and it is probable that the data would be more or less the same among those that are awake.
This could give us some baseline info where one could take a non awaken person and through different experiment have them reproduce the same data however it would not necessary make a person awake. But what if we were able to somehow have people that are not awake use some of this bio-feedback equipment such as they have devices that you can wear on your body and keep in memory all your vitals, brainwaves etc and then when these people woke up you would have the data at the precise moment of them waking up. Then the next step would be simply to reproduce this data in a non awake person and sees what happens.

It's not the biofeedback that produces the Enlightenment, it's the other way around. I think it was David Hawkins who adeptly pointed out - examination of the brain of an Enlightened being are going to show an undercurrent of a lot more release of happy hormone (in a similar way that drugs do in people), but that's not going to show scientists what the source of that happiness is.

We could give people drugs and get the same effect but that will not make them Enlightened. The same goes for all brain and biological functioning. Also, Enlightenment creates various biological tendencies but it's not going to be the exact same for everyone. It's like saying "what is the best diet for everyone?" Well there are some common themes, but different people need different things, and then accounting for gender and age and body type and so forth, it's not a one answer thing. That goes for Enlightenment responses just as much as it goes for diet.

If we could get a grant for this it would really be possible to make this happen. We would need around 25 volunteers that agreed to be wired up for lets say 30 days and then send them to some of the best teachers on this planet that are known for creating a space for people to wake up. Tony Parsons, Sailor Bob Adamson are 2 that come to mind and then just see what happens.
Well, there is a guy I know who is already starting to do this. He is Enlightened himself (although he has never said that directly) and he is trying to do exactly what you're talking about. He is from the Transcendental Mediation movement and so he also focuses a lot on the effects of Transcendental Mediation technique, which is a useful spiritual practice. This meditation cultures the style of functioning that becomes constant once Awakening happens.

You can check out his website:

www.fredtravis.com/science.html

Hi LM,

Great post and I do agree with what your saying.
Waking up is by a large part unique to each person.
Really wakening up tends to be a shock to the person.
If you ask lets say 100 people all who have awaken the chances are that the majority of them will tell you that the actual experience was not one of comfort. When you look at it , it does make sense.
It is much like taking a hit of LSD for the first time your complete orientation changes, your safe point of referience dissapears.
the differience with using a drug is that the drug keeps on working so if your a person that has lots of control your in for a bad trip and a hell of a ride. However if your a prson that can completley trust what is happening and really let go then it is a wonderful trip.

The failsafe is built in on awakening naturaly because as you say it does have to do with letting go and if you try to control your back where you started from. Having said that there are still cases of people that woke up and had a very bad time of it, then began to really dissapear and it was more than just a moment in time.

One thing you wrote that is so right is the help of another who is already awaken. It is not the help of them in their words or how well they can explain to you what awakening in or what comfort they can give you all of this amount to almost nothing. A real teacher has the ability to create a space for you to wake up in.
When you read RM or NM accounts of people that would visit them you will hear this all the time. Even more so from RM he really was in silence most of the time people would come to him and maybe have a question and RM would just look at them into thier guys and all time stop they were in RM space. Today there are very very few people that have this ability. It takes a lot more than just being awake or enlighten to be able to do this. A person like RM if you look at his life he woke up to who he was at 16 then he spent the next 20-30 years being alone in caves and temples. What happes when you spend that much time in Oneness is you become Oneness totaly and anyone that comes around you will be sucked into it. In todays world even though we have a lot more people in the world I would say we would be very lucky to have even 1 or 2 people like RM. Times have changed.
Anyway thanks for your post nice to read
Randji

[The Uncreated]

Jan 23, 2009 15:20:49 GMT -5 dwbh1953 said:

Now does anyone know what this shift is? I hear time and time again that you cannot reach awakening by your mind..

I had a satori of mine recently confirmed by a person widely believed to be awakened, so I believe I'm able to answer insofar as my limited realization occurred.

The shift is laregly existential but it directly reflects in the way you perceive things. For those that haven't exercised the mind enough to be able to quiet the mental chatter, it's subtle and quite difficult to induce. For starters it doesn't involve attempting to control the mind, but actively watching as the mind (or body or world) goes about its business. The mere act of watching the mind will settle it down.

That satori of mine was brought upon by two things: first by simply sitting absolutely still and concentrating on something, for instance your hands, without analyzing what they are or why they are. After a few solid minutes of maintaining this focussed attention, and if you're lucky, you'll start to notice your awareness collapse into the environment while the sensation of your 'I' starts to recede -- recede as in you'll start to notice less and less of an ability to be able to perceive where that 'I' is. This has a direct feeling of having your "background" removed, that is the resulting perception as it happens in you now will still be there, but it will occur with no sense of someone perceiving it.

After a few more minutes you'll gain the distinct feeling of being a disembodied awareness not attached to the body. The feeling carries a certain discomfort along with it -- almost a feeling of being a ghost with the inability to consciously direct what's happening in the environment.

Rather it feels like being dead while being able to perceive what's happening around you from nowhere in particular.

Secondly, and as the experience deepened over those few minutes, I started whispering my name to myself. Why this worked the way it did I'm unable to put into words, but the person that confirmed my satori suggested that the combination of the voice supposedly belonging to me but seemingly not coming from me only served to enhance the experience.

This may very well be the purpose of chanting. Once aligned with the feeling of nonduality, the ongoing action of the chanting serves to prolong and deepen the experience. Consider it a catalyst. If the catalyst is your own voice, it's far more effective than say the reverberating ring of a zazen bell.

So wrapping up, there is truth in the saying that the experience cannot be initiated by the mind, but it it can be induced by short circuiting past the mind and aligning oneself with the hua tou, in other words, the mind before it's disturbed the first thought -- the 'I'. Exactly how long this takes depends on how calm you're able to make the mind. I did it as a young teenager when my head was comparitively less filled with crap, but with practice, it can be induced easily and instantly. The time element the sages speak of relates to the amount of time the average adult needs to sufficiently quiet the mind for the experience to reveal itself.

Hope that helps,

The Uncreated

[lightmystic]

Hi Morrie,

I suppose it affects all those things to some extent, although exactly how depends on the person.

The most obvious thing is the shift in the senses over time, and that seems to happen to everyone as the realization has enough time to sink in.

Once the realization of a lack of separateness is fundamentally perceived, it seems to create a sort of cognitive dissonance, where everything is perceived as nondual, but the thought structure and way of functioning are still "separatist" . Obviously, the nondual understanding isn't going away at the point, as it was a recognition of what had always been there. Thus, the method of functioning in accord with the new perception starts to slowly sink in, and this means a sinking in that each old idea of what was separate is realized to have always been connected. After all, that is the ongoing experience...

As the realization starts to sink in, one finds that even the faculties of perception, the senses themselves, ARE that same Infiniteness. This provides the safety and openness to realize that what was previously relegated to "subtle senses" are now available with gross physical senses. It's not that these levels get jumbled of course. The structure remains (i.e. you'll never mistake something perceived with subtle sight as something perceived with gross sight), but the clarity starts to change the senses themselves, so the recognition of that nonduality and divinity starts to pervade all the senses.

Thus, it feels to me right now that I can see all the levels of Creation. It feels that I can touch them, hear them, smell them, taste them, etc. because it's realized that there's no real boundary to where the physical world ends and the spiritual world begins. It's ALL spiritual, and it's ALL physical.

I can feel/see/touch/taste/hear it. And "it" is the fluctuations of my own Being. That sounds abstract to me, but it's just so simple, I don't think I have any ability to say it well yet...

But please, poke me and ask questions anyone who has the desire to. It will help me clarify this for myself...

Jan 23, 2009 17:44:21 GMT -5 Morrie said:

LM, this is an interesting topic, I was hoping you could provide some more info on this. When you say realization effects physiological functions, could you provide some specifics. Does it affect your skin tone, your appetite, bathroom habits, body weight, sleeping habits, breathing, etc.? Does it affect sensory perceptions...are sights, sounds, smells experienced somewhat differently?

Regards, Morrie

Jan 23, 2009 16:00:23 GMT -5 lightmystic said:

It also affects the physiology (it must or it wouldn't be a real experience). It actually changes the way the physiology functions. And these changes seem to increase more and more as time goes on.

[lightmystic]

Awesome, thanks for your post. It sounds like you are really getting the hang of it.

Just a suggestion as something I've noticed. If what you're doing works consistently for you, then you should continue. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what works, as long as it does. That said, I find that, as separate individuals, we are mere figments. That means that what we have ALWAYS been (and so of course are right now) are one giant being that has no edges and is not separate. And that Being IS your own Awareness.

Thus, it's not that the separate person goes away. There IS no separate person. There never was. There is only the idea of a separate person. And even that IDEA isn't the problem, is the BELIEVING the idea that there is. Thus, just noticing thoughts ("I wonder what thought is going to come next?") allows us to observe them without having to partake in the lifelong (or many many lives long) habit of taking credit for them. Whatever the thought is, just noticing it. Just watching it, without getting involved, without taking credit. If a feeling comes up, just notice that. Don't get involved, just notice it innocently. If the feeling hurts, that means that the feeling is being "categorized" by the mind, and so will not hurt without that categorization. Just notice that feeling and the categorization ("IS that feeling REALLY fear, or am I limiting what it is and can be in some way by calling it that...?"). This simple noticing leaves you with just the noticer. The thoughts are there, or not, everything is there, or not, but the noticer is attended to. The noticer is accepted, and does what it does best: it notices. Gently, simply, innocently.

That "disembodied Awareness" that you described sounds like the beginning of the process of Awakening. The real connection is simply that what you are and have always been IS that "disembodied Awareness". That, of course, is a frightening concept, and so must be examined gently, but it is, nonetheless, the truth. And moment of recognition being the self is Awakening, and cannot be undone.

Then there's the process of Enlightenment. Awakening let's us examine things that are not safe enough to examine before that, and so Enlightenment becomes an immediately practical course...Although the reaching of that depends on your desire...

The next step from there, from what I've seen and experienced, is making the connection between the "disembodied Awareness" and everything else. What's the relationship? This, of course, cannot be safely recognized until one is clear that they ARE the Awareness, but it's the next obvious step in most cases...

Jan 26, 2009 14:15:42 GMT -5 @The Uncreated said:

Jan 23, 2009 15:20:49 GMT -5 dwbh1953 said:

Now does anyone know what this shift is? I hear time and time again that you cannot reach awakening by your mind..

I had a satori of mine recently confirmed by a person widely believed to be awakened, so I believe I'm able to answer insofar as my limited realization occurred.

The shift is laregly existential but it directly reflects in the way you perceive things. For those that haven't exercised the mind enough to be able to quiet the mental chatter, it's subtle and quite difficult to induce. For starters it doesn't involve attempting to control the mind, but actively watching as the mind (or body or world) goes about its business. The mere act of watching the mind will settle it down.

That satori of mine was brought upon by two things: first by simply sitting absolutely still and concentrating on something, for instance your hands, without analyzing what they are or why they are. After a few solid minutes of maintaining this focussed attention, and if you're lucky, you'll start to notice your awareness collapse into the environment while the sensation of your 'I' starts to recede -- recede as in you'll start to notice less and less of an ability to be able to perceive where that 'I' is. This has a direct feeling of having your "background" removed, that is the resulting perception as it happens in you now will still be there, but it will occur with no sense of someone perceiving it.

After a few more minutes you'll gain the distinct feeling of being a disembodied awareness not attached to the body. The feeling carries a certain discomfort along with it -- almost a feeling of being a ghost with the inability to consciously direct what's happening in the environment.

Rather it feels like being dead while being able to perceive what's happening around you from nowhere in particular.

Secondly, and as the experience deepened over those few minutes, I started whispering my name to myself. Why this worked the way it did I'm unable to put into words, but the person that confirmed my satori suggested that the combination of the voice supposedly belonging to me but seemingly not coming from me only served to enhance the experience.

This may very well be the purpose of chanting. Once aligned with the feeling of nonduality, the ongoing action of the chanting serves to prolong and deepen the experience. Consider it a catalyst. If the catalyst is your own voice, it's far more effective than say the reverberating ring of a zazen bell.

So wrapping up, there is truth in the saying that the experience cannot be initiated by the mind, but it it can be induced by short circuiting past the mind and aligning oneself with the hua tou, in other words, the mind before it's disturbed the first thought -- the 'I'. Exactly how long this takes depends on how calm you're able to make the mind. I did it as a young teenager when my head was comparitively less filled with crap, but with practice, it can be induced easily and instantly. The time element the sages speak of relates to the amount of time the average adult needs to sufficiently quiet the mind for the experience to reveal itself.

Hope that helps,

The Uncreated

[dwbh1953]

Jan 26, 2009 14:15:42 GMT -5 @The Uncreated said:

Jan 23, 2009 15:20:49 GMT -5 dwbh1953 said:

Now does anyone know what this shift is? I hear time and time again that you cannot reach awakening by your mind..

I had a satori of mine recently confirmed by a person widely believed to be awakened, so I believe I'm able to answer insofar as my limited realization occurred.

The shift is laregly existential but it directly reflects in the way you perceive things. For those that haven't exercised the mind enough to be able to quiet the mental chatter, it's subtle and quite difficult to induce. For starters it doesn't involve attempting to control the mind, but actively watching as the mind (or body or world) goes about its business. The mere act of watching the mind will settle it down.

That satori of mine was brought upon by two things: first by simply sitting absolutely still and concentrating on something, for instance your hands, without analyzing what they are or why they are. After a few solid minutes of maintaining this focussed attention, and if you're lucky, you'll start to notice your awareness collapse into the environment while the sensation of your 'I' starts to recede -- recede as in you'll start to notice less and less of an ability to be able to perceive where that 'I' is. This has a direct feeling of having your "background" removed, that is the resulting perception as it happens in you now will still be there, but it will occur with no sense of someone perceiving it.

After a few more minutes you'll gain the distinct feeling of being a disembodied awareness not attached to the body. The feeling carries a certain discomfort along with it -- almost a feeling of being a ghost with the inability to consciously direct what's happening in the environment.

Rather it feels like being dead while being able to perceive what's happening around you from nowhere in particular.

Secondly, and as the experience deepened over those few minutes, I started whispering my name to myself. Why this worked the way it did I'm unable to put into words, but the person that confirmed my satori suggested that the combination of the voice supposedly belonging to me but seemingly not coming from me only served to enhance the experience.

This may very well be the purpose of chanting. Once aligned with the feeling of nonduality, the ongoing action of the chanting serves to prolong and deepen the experience. Consider it a catalyst. If the catalyst is your own voice, it's far more effective than say the reverberating ring of a zazen bell.

So wrapping up, there is truth in the saying that the experience cannot be initiated by the mind, but it it can be induced by short circuiting past the mind and aligning oneself with the hua tou, in other words, the mind before it's disturbed the first thought -- the 'I'. Exactly how long this takes depends on how calm you're able to make the mind. I did it as a young teenager when my head was comparitively less filled with crap, but with practice, it can be induced easily and instantly. The time element the sages speak of relates to the amount of time the average adult needs to sufficiently quiet the mind for the experience to reveal itself.

Hope that helps,

The Uncreated

Hi uncreated,

Nice post thanks. I have used similar techniques years ago and had the same result. Stillness of mind and concentration goes a long way to bring a event forward. after a time once you begin to wake up from my experience you sort of have what I call a restore point much like you have on a computer. What I mean by this is that your able to go to this place at will and once there you have a collective effect of being in the moment. In other words nothing goes to waste the more you awaken the more stable this becomes.
Words really fail at this so I am not sure if you are following me.
To say it more simply the more you do it the more you have it!

Peace
Randji