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Apr 17, 2011 16:54:45 GMT -5
Post by vacant on Apr 17, 2011 16:54:45 GMT -5
Oh, and about
which was what I wanted to post about in the first place!!! —> How can you ask that when so many of us here struggle through the illusion of delusion and one of the best lessons I got from you is that the mind will be the last to know of any progress, has not a clue… so who could answer your question and how?
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Apr 17, 2011 17:00:06 GMT -5
Post by vacant on Apr 17, 2011 17:00:06 GMT -5
Sorry Max, that last post was meant for Enigma.
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Apr 17, 2011 17:29:25 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Apr 17, 2011 17:29:25 GMT -5
"What is Mu?" Smiles fondly and body moves forward. *Scratches nose with right hand having written it* "How much does Mu weigh?" Hmmm ~ *chuckling* This much ... right hand out and open palm facing upwards ... thought about opening out left hand and the doing makes it feel serious ...  "What would one say to Mu at the train station?" There isn't anything to say  ~*~ "2. How far can you throw an imaginary baseball?" As far as I like. I don't want to discuss the Mu koan on an open forum, so I'll concentrate on a few informal koans. Some koans are answered with words, many are answered with a physical action, and a few rare koans are answered with total silence. Koans are riddles, but they are not solvable at the level of mind. Almost all of them present either a logical paradox or a double-bind (such as what is the sound of one hand clapping? or "Have you stopped beating your wife yet--answer yes or no"). The reason that not a man scored in the baseball game is that both teams were composed of women. Women often see through this koan more easily than men, and for good reason. This koan is answered with words. What is the true nature of a dog? "Woof woof!" or "Arf arf!" or "Bow wow!" If the mind is not reflecting, this is what will come forth from the body. The phrase "true nature" is the mind-hook. Some people will hear that phrase and think, "Oh, wow; this is deep," and get lost in consequential thoughts. If the mind doesn't take the bait......., "woof woof." What is the absolute existential divine nature of a cow? I think everyone here will now be able to answer this question. How far can you throw an imaginary baseball? The body pantomimes a throwing action in silence. If someone believes in God, she can pray to God, but to whom can someone pray who no longer believes in God, or the Buddha, or Krishna, or Allah, etc? I'm sure that by now everyone is picking up on how these things work. (Points to a pencil) and asks, "What is that?" (Claps hands together) and asks, "What is this?" Why do humans have hands? A man walked down the street. What does this mean? Most of the formal koans are a bit more challenging, but this should provide a general flavor of how they work. |
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Apr 17, 2011 17:51:01 GMT -5
Post by angela on Apr 17, 2011 17:51:01 GMT -5
goodness. i disappear for a few weeks to go on retreat and everything gets all kooky and full of koans. not bad.  i sort of missed all this insanity. sort of not so much either. big hugs from my heart to yours. |
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Apr 17, 2011 19:00:48 GMT -5
Post by stepvhen on Apr 17, 2011 19:00:48 GMT -5
What a shame. He could have ended his striving at any point, he still can
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Apr 17, 2011 22:00:34 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 22:00:34 GMT -5
goodness. i disappear for a few weeks to go on retreat and everything gets all kooky and full of koans. not bad. i sort of missed all this insanity. sort of not so much either. big hugs from my heart to yours. it's a big kooky wave, that's for sure -- hang ten! |
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Apr 17, 2011 22:16:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2011 22:16:24 GMT -5
and beware the purring sharks!!
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Apr 17, 2011 23:18:24 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 23:18:24 GMT -5
Lemme ask an open question here; In all this Michael nonsense, has anybody noticed, realized or gained more clarity about anything that came out of the utterly failed discussions with Michael? If so, then you know why these discussions happened, and why they continue to happen with others. It's not about the cigarette man, it's about the rest of the Zen students in the room. I know that's not the answer to the koan, but I don't care about the koan. I care about the people in the room. Ironically, this is what one aspect of that koan points to. The question asks, how can you teach someone who will not listen to anything you say? First, what can YOU learn from that situation? Second, what can OTHER people learn (who may be a bit more open-minded) from what you've learned as a result of seeing through the koan? There are many reasons for engaging with someone who is close minded. First, is there a gap in the armor anywhere--some tiny opening that might permit an insight to occur? Second, what can YOU learn as you investigate all aspects of the armor. Third, what can OTHER people learn as one probes the armored one? I think this is what you're referring to in this part of your post. Yuppers, that's it zakly. I'm one of those senior citizens too! For some reason it comes easily for me without seeming like I'm thinking. Unconsciousness spills out in a highly visible way that doesn't require some sort of analysis. What becomes difficult for me is when intelligent folks who are pretty conscious begin weaving multi-layered conceptual structures that I have to unravel to understand. I'm thinking of 'Question' here in particular, though i want to say I think there's value to him in the way he explores. It's just that it makes me hafta think and that hurts. Hehe. |
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Apr 17, 2011 23:29:49 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 23:29:49 GMT -5
About Michael: he invested a lot of time and effort into his awakening, and he would like to see some return, or at least some recognition. Unfortunately, not much is happening, and he can get jumpy. That sounds about right. The ROI in this game can be very disappointing. |
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Apr 17, 2011 23:34:21 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 23:34:21 GMT -5
If selfhood is present on both sides of an argument, its a pissing contest. If a dialogue occurs between someone who is strongly attached to selfhood and self-oriented ideation and someone else who isn't, it's a one-sided pissing contest. The other side has no horse in the race (to mix metaphors a bit). Unless, of course he's pissing like a racehorse..... But a horse is a horse of course, of course.........Okay, I think another silliness attack is coming on.  |
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Apr 17, 2011 23:52:21 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 23:52:21 GMT -5
Lemme ask an open question here; In all this Michael nonsense, has anybody noticed, realized or gained more clarity about anything that came out of the utterly failed discussions with Michael? If so, then you know why these discussions happened, and why they continue to happen with others. It's not about the cigarette man, it's about the rest of the Zen students in the room. I know that's not the answer to the koan, but I don't care about the koan. I care about the people in the room. E, you might not care about the cigarette man koan ( I don’t either) but for me you have answered it anyway: “The cigarette man will flick his ashes and wander off and nothing at all can be done about that, nor does anything need to be done about it” — so just walk on by, mind your own business, no teaching, no righting wrongs, with a half smile and a polite nod of the head, it’s all cool, and it all isn’t too. But this is for replying to your open question, of course, it’s about the reason all here come interacting or just reading, the students in the room, and certainly not so failed discussions with Michael. A speciality of mine is misinterpreting the posts I read, but, do I detect a touch of insecurity going the roundabout way to justify some action that bears no need to be justified? Like ZD I was impressed with your staying power and rockwiler persistence when a lot of us have given up (not to be too flattering, that tends to be counterproductive) This forum has a glorious life of its own and I bow in thanks. Not least to E’s contributions. Thanks, Vacant (and ZD too), but it doesn't feel like it requires persistence for the reason I described: It's not about the resisting one and so I'm not trying to achieve a goal in the face of resistance, like pushing a boulder up a mountain. What would make it tedious would be to work toward the nearly futile goal of changing a resistant mind. Also, in case anybody's interested, this is also why I don't employ gentle communication tricks to guide the listener along. For my focus, vinegar works as well as honey, and in the interest of clarity, sometimes better. Basically, we're all just chatting here and looking to see what's really going on. Nobody needs to be any way other than how they're being, including Michael. |
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Apr 17, 2011 23:56:59 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 23:56:59 GMT -5
Lemme ask an open question here; In all this Michael nonsense, has anybody noticed, realized or gained more clarity about anything that came out of the utterly failed discussions with Michael? If so, then you know why these discussions happened, and why they continue to happen with others. It's not about the cigarette man, it's about the rest of the Zen students in the room. I know that's not the answer to the koan, but I don't care about the koan. I care about the people in the room. it's a good question to ponder and i agree with your answer. for me it gave me some confidence that i was accurately sorting BS from not-BS. if this had been more of a 'can't we all be friends' type of spiritual place i'd have been long gone. even in these last iterations of whack-a-mole with abideinself (honest name), it seemed clear that a lie was popping up again but it wasn't until i saw others chime in that i could rest in confidence with this discernment. Cool stuff. 'Whack-a-mole'. Hehe. |
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Apr 18, 2011 0:20:19 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2011 0:20:19 GMT -5
Oh, and about which was what I wanted to post about in the first place!!! —> How can you ask that when so many of us here struggle through the illusion of delusion and one of the best lessons I got from you is that the mind will be the last to know of any progress, has not a clue… so who could answer your question and how? Well, I'd say that just because the mind is the last to know, it doesn't mean it can't be noticed when it's wallet has been stolen. Hehe. After all, you noticed the truth about how the mind is the last to know, so how did you notice that? The reason things like that can be noticed is that you are not the mind. You're the noticer. |
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Apr 18, 2011 0:26:36 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2011 0:26:36 GMT -5
What is the absolute existential divine nature of a cow? I think everyone here will now be able to answer this question.
Mu! Hehe.
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Apr 18, 2011 0:29:24 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 18, 2011 0:29:24 GMT -5
goodness. i disappear for a few weeks to go on retreat and everything gets all kooky and full of koans. not bad. A woman who never existed disappears. How do we know when she returns? Hehe. |
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