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Post by Portto on Oct 8, 2009 16:48:21 GMT -5
I experience the physical body kind of like a blanket. It protects and keeps warm. It supports and provides interaction (which isn't really like a blanket ) with that same comfort and feeling of blanketness. It feels like the physical body is eternal on it's universal level, which is primary, so it really doesn't ultimately matter whether it comes and goes, although the fact that it works well and always serves brings deep gratitude. Now, that's a mystic experience!
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Post by zendancer on Oct 8, 2009 19:13:02 GMT -5
Alpha: The body often does things that are unacceptable to other people. It drinks wine , but my teetotaling friends don't find that acceptable. It climbs mountains, but my friends who are afraid of heights find that unacceptable (they use words like "crazy" or "dangerous"). It occasionally drives too fast, and my wife finds that unacceptable (she uses words like "Please slow down"). Fortunately, it never does anything that I find unacceptable. No matter what it does, it always seems to be doing exactly what it has to be doing. LOL
I'm just having fun here, so don't get attached to the words. My point is that everyday life is the way. Looking for anything more than everyday life is like the proverbial fish looking for water. Cheers.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 9, 2009 11:03:52 GMT -5
That's very true, but it's somehow wonderful when the fish recognizes water. Then everything changes. But your point is well taken, and, I think, very important. All mystical experiences COME from a deeper recognition of what we are ALREADY seeing. There is no other place to go, look, etc.. And it just means letting go of what is necessary to allow more in, and so we can start to be able to form a closer relationship with That which already is. Anything that is thought not to be wanted is because it is not fully understood for what it is and what it's doing. That has always been the case for me looking back, even though I didn't realize it for the majority of my life. It's nice to realize it in real time though. It's like a fish finding water perhaps.... Alpha: The body often does things that are unacceptable to other people. It drinks wine , but my teetotaling friends don't find that acceptable. It climbs mountains, but my friends who are afraid of heights find that unacceptable (they use words like "crazy" or "dangerous"). It occasionally drives too fast, and my wife finds that unacceptable (she uses words like "Please slow down"). Fortunately, it never does anything that I find unacceptable. No matter what it does, it always seems to be doing exactly what it has to be doing. LOL I'm just having fun here, so don't get attached to the words. My point is that everyday life is the way. Looking for anything more than everyday life is like the proverbial fish looking for water. Cheers.
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Post by vacant on Feb 19, 2010 7:42:21 GMT -5
Hum, old thread this one, but something I was just writing in my journal I thought to contribute to this site. I couldn’t quite find where to post it in the more current threads, this one was started by LM with an intention that befits. …although I am not actually referring to any “spiritual experience”! Matter of fact, my appetite for spiritual experiences has noticeably dwindled over the years, I’m not at all convinced I am after experience of any sort, I just want the truth, or call it “know the One”, or BE god for that matter, you guys know what I mean. Anyway, I am noting the growing recognition of the very certain reality of my own insignificance. I have often talked with others about this insignificance, but more from a distant intuition in the context of lighthearted pseudo-philosophical conversations. This is getting much more visceral. It’s not particularly cheerful but there is an irremediable nature to it which carries a welcome ripening, like it’s not a cute idea or thing to say, it’s showing up very tangibly and there’s no arguing. I seem to resign to it with relative grace and that comes from the sense of being real, as being noticed pretty much besides “me”. The near obsessional yearning for enlightenment, awakening, etc, that eats me up is beginning to annoy me as it is increasingly clear that it don’t matter one tiny bit whether Vacant awakens or not. Repeatedly coming back and again to inner silence shows that this me is of no relevance and I sense this is the very stuff I need to realize. But there is a want or need or just prefering to attend to that quiet and unexpressed “place”, without shooting for any “spiritual achievement” (ha ha). What is is perfect as is, awakening or not. Scram, with your ambitions, Vacant, this place is a Sanctuary and you’re being to loud! We’re not talking about false humility here, neither is it being hard on myself in anyway, OF COURSE desire for the Supreme goes on devouring me up, but there is a distance in the observation that takes place. P.S. I use the words “me” and “I” in resolutely cavalier fashion, the schizophrenics of which could fast lead me to the straight jacket, but then so do you all here, so shhh! Don’t say
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 19, 2010 12:47:09 GMT -5
Ah! Beautiful experience vacant! Thank you for sharing! You make an excellent point that, when it's time, it's time. It's not a choice when it's time, it just shows up on your doorstep, and that can be deeply unsettling. But it's a sign that something very serious, real, and important is happening. And it seems like you are really giving it it's due. Which is important from my perspective, and is wonderful to see. Also, note, that when I say "experience" it's not so much the transitory experience that come and go, but rather just "what does it 'feel like'? What does it 'look like'?" etc.. These are based on deeper recognitions that are not transitory, and that is the value (and really the only value) talking about these things and going more deeply into them. You refer to That which is not the same as you ("vacant"). If I might ask (although you, of course, don't have to answer if you are already full and need some integration before you poke further), what is it feel like your relationship to That other thing is.....? Hum, old thread this one, but something I was just writing in my journal I thought to contribute to this site. I couldn’t quite find where to post it in the more current threads, this one was started by LM with an intention that befits. …although I am not actually referring to any “spiritual experience”! Matter of fact, my appetite for spiritual experiences has noticeably dwindled over the years, I’m not at all convinced I am after experience of any sort, I just want the truth, or call it “know the One”, or BE god for that matter, you guys know what I mean. Anyway, I am noting the growing recognition of the very certain reality of my own insignificance. I have often talked with others about this insignificance, but more from a distant intuition in the context of lighthearted pseudo-philosophical conversations. This is getting much more visceral. It’s not particularly cheerful but there is an irremediable nature to it which carries a welcome ripening, like it’s not a cute idea or thing to say, it’s showing up very tangibly and there’s no arguing. I seem to resign to it with relative grace and that comes from the sense of being real, as being noticed pretty much besides “me”. The near obsessional yearning for enlightenment, awakening, etc, that eats me up is beginning to annoy me as it is increasingly clear that it don’t matter one tiny bit whether Vacant awakens or not. Repeatedly coming back and again to inner silence shows that this me is of no relevance and I sense this is the very stuff I need to realize. But there is a want or need or just prefering to attend to that quiet and unexpressed “place”, without shooting for any “spiritual achievement” (ha ha). What is is perfect as is, awakening or not. Scram, with your ambitions, Vacant, this place is a Sanctuary and you’re being to loud! We’re not talking about false humility here, neither is it being hard on myself in anyway, OF COURSE desire for the Supreme goes on devouring me up, but there is a distance in the observation that takes place. P.S. I use the words “me” and “I” in resolutely cavalier fashion, the schizophrenics of which could fast lead me to the straight jacket, but then so do you all here, so shhh! Don’t say
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Post by vacant on Feb 21, 2010 13:23:30 GMT -5
The attention and commentary are appreciated, and I certainly welcome questioning/ poking, that’s one of the great returns I see from posting here! I’m a bit at a loss on how to answer “how does the relationship feel” because it took me your question to even consider this as a relationship. I had to do some inward “investigating”— always a good thing, and so thanks.
I know that you’ve mentioned before that thoughts are no problem as long as you don’t put stock in them. That might be so if you are further dis-identified with them but at my stage here I seem to still let them have such a hold that the only way to get significantly close to That is to GET OFF the thoughts. Only then there is some seeing but not much “vacant”. It’s kind of like there isn’t room for both the person made up of thought/concept and the Untouchable, so it’s hard to talk of a relationship as such (I can see it’s not much of an infinite vision but I have to play the hand I’m holding). So in that sense the relationship feels like the person is a temporary squatter where That owns and is the space.
Also, I often perceive the “nothing” quality, and what kind of relationship is there between an imaginary person and nothing?!
Probing further, there I find a feeling of trust, yes trust and reverence. I throw my compass away and I am in good steering hands although I don’t know what those hands are doing. I feel deep care like I’m looked after, but that can get tricky because neither do I want to double guess myself —cf Zendancer and Seung Sahn— nor have it on the other hand scarily alike religious blind faith, that might be for another chapter of resistance probing…
But to conclude honestly: at my closest to IT I cannot see feelings. So far I perceive That as beyond feelings, those expressed here or others.
Hope some of this meets what you were asking.
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 22, 2010 11:41:54 GMT -5
Hey Vacant, Great response! There are definitely periods where we are so used to identifying with thoughts, that it takes a bit of time to let go of that habit. And that is an important part of an important process. Ultimately, though, once you've seen clearly how you are identifying with a thought, then you have truly seen that you are not the thought. So, at that point, it's really only a matter of time before the identification falls away (IF that's what you really want). And that process can feel, at first, like a noticing of the identification only after the fact, and then it progresses more or less like: 1.) moves to a noticing the identification WHILE it's happening but without the ability to change it, 2.) noticing while it's happening and a feeling like you could make the decision to change it - but do not quite succeed, 3.) noticing while it's happening and finally able to make the decision to change it 4.) enough lack of identification that the issue stops coming up And so that can be the process of unwinding... and that always seems to be the case on some level, even though it gets more automatic and streamlined over time.....And so whatever helps you move away from the habit of identification, once you've seen it is useful. It's also useful to note, however, that if something about a thought bothers you, then the thought really needs to be examined deeply, as no amount of pushing it away is going to resolve it. You must identify why it appears that the thought is true, and question it until you discover what the assumption in there is....because, if something is uncomfortable, it means that there's an assumption in there somewhere. An assumption means something that was reasonably believed under the circumstances, but was not looked at close enough to verify whether it was true or not. To really find the truth of that assumptions resolves all pain with it... When I say feelings, I'm literally just talk about the experience itself, not so much "emotions/feelings ABOUT" what's going on. It transcends all relative things, but it still a feeling. It's, perhaps, and infinite feeling, one that cannot be pinned down with labels, but there is still Awareness of it on some level, or else you wouldn't even know that it existed (by definition). So, I certainly understand that no combination of words is ever going to properly describe the experience. Yet, somehow, with the attempt to talk about it, the experience itself comes through.....and it's, of course, understood that the words are simply placeholders for THAT which cannot be conceptualized. Still, to try to express it forces you to put your attention on it in great detail, and I find that attention to it like that brings clarity much faster than it otherwise would. Because you are forced to acknowledge those subtle values of your experience, and that enlivens them and makes them more concrete - it brings them to the forefront. In terms of relationship, at a most basic level you could say well, you - "vacant" - are experiencing "This" and so that's a relationship right there. But the relationship might be more than JUST that, and so I would certainly be interested to hear what you find if you look into your relationship, as vacant, to That..... Anyway, let me know what you think..... The attention and commentary are appreciated, and I certainly welcome questioning/ poking, that’s one of the great returns I see from posting here! I’m a bit at a loss on how to answer “how does the relationship feel” because it took me your question to even consider this as a relationship. I had to do some inward “investigating”— always a good thing, and so thanks. I know that you’ve mentioned before that thoughts are no problem as long as you don’t put stock in them. That might be so if you are further dis-identified with them but at my stage here I seem to still let them have such a hold that the only way to get significantly close to That is to GET OFF the thoughts. Only then there is some seeing but not much “vacant”. It’s kind of like there isn’t room for both the person made up of thought/concept and the Untouchable, so it’s hard to talk of a relationship as such (I can see it’s not much of an infinite vision but I have to play the hand I’m holding). So in that sense the relationship feels like the person is a temporary squatter where That owns and is the space. Also, I often perceive the “nothing” quality, and what kind of relationship is there between an imaginary person and nothing?! Probing further, there I find a feeling of trust, yes trust and reverence. I throw my compass away and I am in good steering hands although I don’t know what those hands are doing. I feel deep care like I’m looked after, but that can get tricky because neither do I want to double guess myself —cf Zendancer and Seung Sahn— nor have it on the other hand scarily alike religious blind faith, that might be for another chapter of resistance probing… But to conclude honestly: at my closest to IT I cannot see feelings. So far I perceive That as beyond feelings, those expressed here or others. Hope some of this meets what you were asking.
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Post by karen on Feb 22, 2010 21:38:42 GMT -5
OK, I've had a few experiences in my search, but I haven't thought about them all that much. Or maybe I've thought they were too painful to think about.
After my entire life looking outward for solutions I finally started to do things differently.
Most vexing for me where recurring (PTSD style) memories of embarrassing and shameful moments which started full tilt in 6th grade.
But in my 30's one night the pain was so great I held my head in my hands and screamed out to no one begging for help: that I didn't know what to do.
After minutes or hours I forget - I was laying on my bed and when another round of painful memories arose, I was about to imagine blowing my brains out (the typical response) instead the thought arose to embrace the feeling - literally by hugging the feeling by hugging myself. Instantly the pain changed and was no longer painful. It was a eureka moment.
Not having that pain was all I cared about. I wasn't looking for anything else.
But I continued to do this when the memories arose. And after one week I noticed that miraculously I started giving other people a break too. There must be more to this I thought.
Some days later while another particularly painful moment came up, instead of hugging it, I started to turn away but caught myself, closed my eyes and turned into the feeling.
From the darkness appeared a man. To me it was Jesus - a very Catholic looking silhouette of Jesus. (I wasn't then nor am I now a believer in Jesus but anyway...) He came up to me had a finger like ET's and touched my heart which came alive with feeling. That feeling in my heart has changed in intensity but has never gone away since.
Then about a month later while sitting on my bed craving some candy (I had spontaneously lost 20lbs or so at this time), I thought about how I didn't want to start gaining weight again, and I embraced the craving itself. To my amazement - the craving held the satisfaction of fulfilling the craving! I could crave a "Snickers" and feel the satisfaction of eating it without actually eating it. I'd enhance this by smelling the real thing and working up the craving and then enjoy the craving!
But that didn't last. For one I was very proud of this power and bragged to everyone I knew who had a weight problem about this amazing "tool". I pictured writing books and being Oprah's personal consultant even! But it didn't take long before I couldn't "do it" anymore. Needless to say, the bragging stopped. And slowly the weight came back on.
But that feeling in my heart stayed and even grew. Once it was almost painful, but embracing it made it incredibly pleasant. I could often lay in bed and feel that feeling, and think about one emotion and that feeling was it. Sadness, love, want, fulfillment emptiness - it all seemed to be the same thing. Then once I awoke early in the morning and was working on my computer when it felt like a 4 foot wide diameter yellow sun emanating from it. It was yellow but I couldn't see it.
Another experience came while working on accepting things as they were, and once while eating at In&Out burger with my mom, I heard a group of teenaged girls laugh. And like ZD's phone call, for some reason everything changed. Or rather my outlook changed. Loud people would normally annoy me, but not now. The traffic on the way home was just as congested as ever, but it didn't bug me. The dogs barking uncontrollably down the street seemed to lull me even deeper into acceptance!
I wondered though if this would survive the night and into the morning. I wondered this because often I could get to a really good place in the evening, but by morning I felt like a slab of meat every time. But not that morning! It was miraculous - somehow I knew it was still there - whatever it was.
Later that day feeling bold, I got dressed nice and went to the local mall as a test (a place I always hated and avoided going to being highly socially phobic), and I walked about 100 yards before I checked. Was it still there? NO! It was gone! I was the old fearful negative me again. I stopped at a bench to pretend I was waiting for someone, put on my sunglasses and cried pretending not to. I waited enough time to let the people who were there when I arrived move on so I could slink out of there there.
It was ironic that the night before I had watched "Lost Horizon" - I felt I knew what he went through.
From then on it been barren - the stick the whole way.
It occurred to me to write this thanks to LM's comments elsewhere that it's actually a good thing to write about this stuff and to remember it and keep it in mind.
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 22, 2010 22:47:35 GMT -5
Hey Karen,
That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing your experience. I was also incredibly frustrated about the whole having and amazing spiritual experience and then losing it. I remember going into deep depressions about that, not too different than the kind of frustration you have described above. At some point, and I'm not really sure how this happened, I was in another of my deep depressions at having lost an amazing spiritual experience....and then my mind kind of wandered back all the times I had done the same thing, and then it hit me: the "losing it" wasn't losing it at all, but was part of the process of stabilizing it! And the actual acknowledgement of that allowed the process to complete itself. At that time, I discovered that once a new way of being dawns (in the form of some flashy spiritual experience), then life brings up all the reasons we don't have that all the time (i.e. all the resistances) so that we can let those resistances go and stabilize the experience so it becomes our everyday way of being. And that's not a small thing, but the "losing it" (and often in ways that feel worse than before we had the experience) is really just part of addressing all of those refusals to accept life being that big in ALL circumstances. Because when we can accept that enjoyable spiritual experience unconditionally, then the experience can stabilize....
So the "losing it" is actually Life presenting an opportunity to really get rid of very large amounts of what's in the way, because now we have a real motivation to do so. The key, I suppose, is just recognizing that you really CAN have those all the time, you just have to let go of whatever Life is asking you to let go of.....
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Post by vacant on Feb 24, 2010 20:00:20 GMT -5
Ah, we had different interpretations of the word “feeling” and you clarified it. The feel is that of an overtaking of all, nothing left untouched. There is an instantly recognizable texture: full, thick & chunky, no crevasses in there. Understand that I do not get out of the experiential there, nor of the personality, so in all likelihood this is fully steeped in the illusory. It’s what I could call visions that I get, short-lived revelations although for sure there is a stepping out of time. Those are given — as not conjured up. I find them far and long bearing in their influence and their work. When it’s there I am convinced it’s there for good. The beckoning is excruciating when I’m off it, but when on it there is a clarity that I then safely feel cannot be undone, a sort of understanding that’s for keepers, no end. But then it fades, sometimes abruptly, sometimes little by little, so I guess that proves it’s not all that solid!
Although it is barely scratching the surface, I seem to be in no doubt of Who or What is messaging and operating — you guys are laughing your heads off like: whenever the hell is it not That operating, right? But to get back to the feel: overwhelming yes, but pressurizing not at all, kind of a very loving call.
Dearly welcome any of my fellows here to pick at that, maybe blow it down… Shoot! I always need to move onward.
And a paradox: Lost as much as ever, and more comfortable with that than I’ve known before. No wish here to be found, as that would crystallize things unnecessarily. Yearning yes, but mostly to let be.
P.S. I bare, encouraged by Karen’s “warts and all” contribution, but I do so nervously, and that surprises me (?)
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 26, 2010 0:59:40 GMT -5
Vacant, Ah! Beautiful description! But so much so, I actually would love to hear more. Can you go into even more detail about your experience? I'm loving it over here!
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Post by vacant on Mar 3, 2010 8:38:45 GMT -5
You are playing here! On one hand you are encouraging me to investigate further, and thank you because I end up doing just that; on the other you are pushing me to express the inexpressible and I’m in danger of giving birth to yet more concepts, soiling it in some way. Anyhow…
One curious part of that relationship is the spasms, I explain: in earlier years of meditation, when a good posture was supposed to be pretty much straight and still, I would instead spend a good first half hour swinging my spine like a pendulum in quest of the “receptive” area to be a bit like an aerial catching what’s going on — not learned, not an idea of it, just my weird way of feeling how to tune in. When later in life I revisited the connection the same process manifested differently, more like involuntary jerks, spasms. Felt strange at the beginning but I very well know now it’s a way of the body shaking off fixed ideas, again making a receptive connection. These days I rarely sit in “formal” meditation but looking for contact or presence in various circumstances throughout my day these very short and sudden shakes occur when I’m kind of given a helping hand, accompanied by a short blank of the mind. It’s never felt other than very welcome, like a signal or message that IT is there and happening now.
So that’s one side I guess of how the relationship works: it’s pushing from inside and I like what it does, and when I don’t like what it does it makes me ugly for a couple days a) I’m in conflict with the person (“vacant”) and though that might be reasons to detach and move on down, I first have to make friends and accept as it is, b) I know with certitude what is at play, Life is taking its course! Oh that can sound so bland and meaningless yet I say it full on.
Now, closer in contact, I have seen enough to know that what’s in and around me is ALIVE. Talk about how it feels, alive is definitely a close pointer. Haven’t quite clarified yet if there is or not volition.
The aliveness brings me back to the texture I was trying to describe above in this thread: I really do not want to sound gooey Walt Disney here but… the texture is made – of – love. It blows my mind (nicely) but love is the fabric of it. How else can I honestly describe That? Perhaps if we don’t want to appear too sentimental we could call it absolute benevolence. Same-same, that’s what it’s made of! Well… as seen from here. Are we back to volition then? Jimmy crack corn…
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 3, 2010 12:06:23 GMT -5
Very nice Vacant! The experience comes through when it's described directly. And that's very nice, because everyone has their own unique experience and flavor of it. And so it's always wonderful to hear it. Thanks for your descriptions. I'll be looking forward to more when there is more.
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Post by amit on Mar 4, 2010 17:10:41 GMT -5
My own reflections are that like a computer fixer, when Ego (I myself) detects discomfort it searches through the memory files to see if it has been sorted before, and applies that solution again. If not previously encountered it will seek externally to gather data in order to continue working on the problem.
Should the discomfort be a feeling of disconnection, the same process will be undertaken, exploring spirtual paths/philosophies some of which may resonate and various practices may be undertaken with varying degrees of success. Ego that is usually successful in solving problems may be happy on these paths and feel it's getting somewhere, others who are usually unsuccessful may not even be prepared to embark and the feeling of discomfort remains.
In this search Ego may encounter nonduality and the simple concept "All is One" and, particularly the unsuccessful type, may welcome the absense of personal responsibility that comes with simply being One Ego-ing, and a quick total end of disconnection may be felt. But usually not All is seen as One. For example it may be seen that "All is One" but not Ego, or suffering, or Hitler. If All exceptions are gathered in as One arising the feeling of disconnection and worrying about it may drop away. The Organism still apparently walks about, and Ego continues to work on problems like catching a rabbit for supper or why I can never find my socks, but there is no longer the feeling that the Oganism/Ego is in any way disconnected. If it feels like that has happened, great, there maybe a profound sense of relief.
The great gift of the nonduality story seems to be that there can be no disconnection even if disconnection is felt, because it would already be One appearing as feeling disconnected!
No distance between seeker and sought, not even the distance of having to realize this.
-amit-
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Post by zendancer on Mar 4, 2010 22:20:07 GMT -5
Amit: The story of non-duality is a story. The direct experience of non-duality is unimaginable. Not-knowing is the way.
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