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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2010 13:12:11 GMT -5
That one line by E. made this whole thread worthwhile. I am still laughing. I conclude that E. must have either a particulalry brilliant mind or a particularly demented one. Well, maybe he's lost his mind, in which case they could be the same. HA!
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 2, 2010 13:33:51 GMT -5
Well said, and good point about 'want"- desire.
I'll add that suffering's best aspect is that it is very powerful for surrender.
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Post by Portto on Dec 2, 2010 13:39:48 GMT -5
Hey Cabin,
Your thread turned out to be a very successful one after all.
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Post by Portto on Dec 2, 2010 13:40:57 GMT -5
Well said Porto When someone truly see's (realize) that thoughts have no ownerships, that all thoughts come from the same place and are not personalized by you they suffering has no place to root and it goes away. I began to feel the most free when I lost all my money, I was in a 3rd world country, I had absolutely no money nor friends to call upon for money to even buy a plane ticket back to the US. While I was under such pressure and suffering I realized I was not my thoughts and became happy about my situation as I could now watch as a witness what will happen next this was more than just a head thing with a shifting of beliefs it was a realized fact. I knew for years about thoughts but that did know good. You can only last so long when you are using your head and brain to think your way through. But when you have something that is happening to you that could be very dangerous to you living another day and you realize what thoughts are then there is no going back. This is why most people in groups like neo-advaita, Ruthless Truth whatever have or will have a large falling out because they are using there brain /mind to try to think there way through and it never can last. When the mind needs a break in 1 day they will be out of it and on to something fresh in the mind. Michael You sure had your share of strange experiences!
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Post by Portto on Dec 2, 2010 13:46:45 GMT -5
Nice post, Thank you Enigma. Is thinking required for stuff to be perceived as personal? I say yes. The thought, 'this shouldn't be happening to me' doesn't happen without thinking. Well, I do perceive my hands to be more personal than other objects without much thinking --- like a reflex.
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Post by Portto on Dec 2, 2010 13:49:19 GMT -5
Well, maybe he's lost his mind, in which case they could be the same. HA! Yes, but he knows the mind is not 'his.'
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 2, 2010 14:43:32 GMT -5
ja ja ja you have no idea. I really believe that if you want to really awake and you put yourself in a life threatening situation with no apparent remedies that you will pop into awakening as long as you stay focus and still as a witness. Michael emigma loosing ones mind is a large part of waking up You sure had your share of strange experiences!
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2010 15:13:33 GMT -5
Nice post, Thank you Enigma. Is thinking required for stuff to be perceived as personal? I say yes. The thought, 'this shouldn't be happening to me' doesn't happen without thinking. Well, I do perceive my hands to be more personal than other objects without much thinking --- like a reflex. Right, it all becomes pretty unconscious and automatic, and i see us dissecting types of thought here, though I'm not thrilled about the prospect. Hehe. "I perceive" "My hands" "More personal" "Other objects". There's a lot of conceptualization happening to arrive at what seems like a thoughtless reflex before it is verbalized.
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Post by Portto on Dec 2, 2010 18:31:36 GMT -5
Right, it all becomes pretty unconscious and automatic, and i see us dissecting types of thought here, though I'm not thrilled about the prospect. Hehe. "I perceive" "My hands" "More personal" "Other objects". There's a lot of conceptualization happening to arrive at what seems like a thoughtless reflex before it is verbalized. Indeed, we are splitting hairy thoughts and it's not much fun. What about: "I perceive the stove to be hot." Does it require thought? Anyway, it still seems to me that we can suffer without thinking, like when experiencing 'pure terror.' Maybe there was a thought that started it, but we can stay with the terror and forget about the thought. Have you seen terrified small children?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2010 20:29:45 GMT -5
Right, it all becomes pretty unconscious and automatic, and i see us dissecting types of thought here, though I'm not thrilled about the prospect. Hehe. "I perceive" "My hands" "More personal" "Other objects". There's a lot of conceptualization happening to arrive at what seems like a thoughtless reflex before it is verbalized. Well, assuming you're not thinking that, no. Hehe. Can pure terror happen without a thought? Are terrified children not thinking? Fear can happen without thinking, and physical sensation can happen without thinking. These aren't the same as suffering, and they're not a problem.
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Post by Portto on Dec 2, 2010 23:42:06 GMT -5
Enigma: We can be terrified without thinking. Reading your insightful post from the "Meditation" thread, I would say that associating thinking with suffering is a [true] horizontal thingy.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 2, 2010 23:53:45 GMT -5
porto- part of the communication dilemma here might be in how the word 'perception' is being used. www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/perception?view=ukwww.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/perception#perception_9but then again, do not always be to sure of your self! haha www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvkyou are right, it is like splitting hairs, but the brain is in the show and is always on the move either consciously or unconsciously perceiving-feeling-thinking-perceiving-thinking-feeling. it's an amazing thing! how did you grow such an amazing toy? and why does yours perceive things so much differently than someone else's? Definition 1- perception through the senseswhen you burn your hand on a fire, one doesn't suffer. at least not in the sense that it is used in this forum. but the experience of hotness and pain is processed and is likely encoded as something along the lines of fear. Definition 2- perception through the senses + perception of a new situationthe same process might happen when someone picks up a really hot pot, but then there a slightly different dynamic involved. when that same person sees other pots in the kitchen, sitting on a stove, it is likely there is some unconscious thinking in the brain going on there, for the sake of the individual. who knows, maybe if burned enough, some form of neurosis about pots develops! haha Definition 3- perception of new situation + perception that something happens or happened or is happeningnow you take the same process of wiring the brain into the realm of everyday life in the show, with all of its ongoings. there is a lot of potential there. you look around and you see people struggling with their perception of reality on so many levels. the suffering is the relationship of this ongoing process of thinking-feeling-perceiving to what actually is, just missing the point. a lot of it is at the unconscious level; it is right there in your face, but one is lost in the catacombs of the mind and not present. i would venture to say that a lot of perception is based on the thinking that gives rise to the false assumptions, beliefs, and judgments encoded unconsciously over a period of a lifetime. the thoughts have given rise to a system of beliefs which continues to change and affect ones process of thinking, feeling, and perceiving. all good, until one day, unexplicably, a mysterious question pops up in the brain that says something like, "is any of this true?" i would then venture to say, and based on memory of experience, that this line of questioning likely gives rise to a whole host of other questions that eventually leads one to these really deep core unconscious beliefs; you know, like that really interesting universal one that characters have to eventually deal with that says "i am so and so", "i was born in...i work at...". then some freaky guy comes by and says "you do not exist". the self-perceived individual character then goes in hyperdrive reacting with all of its other beliefs, perceptions, lines of reasoning, judgments to justify that freaky guy character's insanity. all good and fun in a movie that you can objectively watch, finish, and go out and contemplate. but, what if you are the unconscious star of that show that is being persecuted, and you feel in your heart of hearts that burning line of questioning leading you ever deeper into the seeming abyss of perceived selfhood and theirs nothing to hold on to. what feeling, thought, or perception arises now? something in you allows you to see those "other" things as illusory because they are all based on some false premise that you can not perceive, explain, and put your finger on. maybe the question would be, "am i going mad?", because the perception is that everyone else is alright and going about their business. but the question keeps popping up, causing that anxiety that is perceived as painful and/or that something is likely wrong with your brain. but this is the suffering. what is that false premise giving rise to all of this? as a pointer out of the show, i would say that prior to thinking, feeling, perceiving is awareness. awareness is not a concept, but a fundamental stillness. the character, is a function in the show. its thoughts, feelings, and perceptions are necessarily geared for survival, which is necessary for the show to continue. but the existential confusion and suffering arises, and in a reactionary way, the character goes off on a search in the show. looking for some kind of consolation, answer, puzzle or whatever to help perpetuate the illusion of its existence, for it believes that its role or function is fundamental. maybe looking for that freaky guy for help, but he can only function as a pointer, not be the fundamental awareness for any other character! in essence, its the wrong direction or intention, and is followed because of preconceived perceptions. the mind misses the point of return to source, awareness, that makes the whole show possible. it is so simple conceptually, but how often do characters actually break out and become awareness of the show of life, existence, and death, much less feel comfortable with going back in and participating from time to time?
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 0:20:07 GMT -5
Good job monkey in explaining this is what happens when you begin to get close. I will only add the point is not to get out of the show but to go through the show to the other side where non conceptual awareness sits waiting. However before this happens you will go through some stuff that only the very brave will make it through. remember when I write words are extremely limited what I try to do is paint a very general heads up.
In a day or 2 I am going by myself into the mountains where a cabin is so I will not be on here until I am on here again.
Michael
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Post by monkkey on Dec 3, 2010 1:57:06 GMT -5
interesting. are you sure? the show is just a metaphor being used as a contextualizing tool, so yea, a few prepositions will likely do. haha. the point really only is to be aware of the nature of suffering and see how it can be useful in the show, rather than resist, fight or flee it; be the awareness one already is.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 3, 2010 6:38:34 GMT -5
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