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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2010 23:20:50 GMT -5
I should explain what I mean by re-wiring with positive thought. Re-wiring can be done by taking a fear, say "I am afraid of fish," for example. One needs to look at the problem for what it is, why am I afraid of fish? Then follow the train of thought, this may take a little meditating and focus, and follow the thought to the point of origin. Now, I don't claim this will work for every fear, you may have to do some research, maybe crack a book or two, it all depends on the fear or thought, but you can come to terms with a fear by looking it in the eye. Believe me, it worked for many of my peers as well as for me. When the fear is addressed, and looked at for what it is, one can set that fear aside knowing that it wont control your thoughts any longer. I know, it sounds simplistic, but most things are. We over complicate things as a rule, but it is not required. Facing your fears is certainly not easy, or comfortable, or even safe, but if you wanted comfort and safety you never would have gone seeking liberation and beyond. The best way to deal with a fear of fish is to avoid fish. So you meditate and focus and crack a couple books and the fear of fish goes away? Why? And so what if it does? There are countless fears behind the fish fear just lining up for their turn to be faced, and to what end? Do you think you can become fearless? Don't waste time. The path is straight and narrow. Let fear come. It has nothing to do with you. You would have it that there are steps to get to where you are. I say you simply need to notice, and begin with noticing what you are not and questioning everything you think you know. Nothing you can think is ultimately true. You can't ever get there by overcoming meaningless fears. There is no end to mind's fears. If you want to face a fear, face the fear around which all other fears revolve; the fear of death. Make friends with death and you won't be concerned about rewiring brains, positive thinking and fish fear.
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Post by frankshank on Oct 4, 2010 4:43:27 GMT -5
I finished a 3 week water fast not so long ago. What I found was that I came out of it with less fear of death. It wasn' t that I felt close to death as I didn't reach starvation point but I was doing it unsupervised so there was always a slight risk that there'd be an internal issue I wasn't aware of and something would fail. It didn't stop me and it felt good. Most people who I've mentioned it to think I'm mad. You can see the shock and fear in their eyes. My ego likes that because it's a way of feeling superior I guess. Although, I have a feeling the other egos feel superior because they're not insane! ;D
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Post by yumcha on Oct 4, 2010 5:41:38 GMT -5
"begin with noticing what you are not and questioning everything you think you know".
Is this not basically what I have been trying so unsuccssfully to say? What is so different with this "method"? You are simply "noticing" the fear then "rejecting" it because it does not "exsist," supposedly. (From the observers perspective you are correct, however your emodiement may beg to differ.)
Avoiding a fear is just running away. Not everybody has the luxury to just run away from their every fear, pretending it does not exist. I am no clinical psychologist, but I have to say that there may be a flaw in this line of reasoning. Can you run away from the fear of death?
No you cannot, but you can educate yourself, from those that have gone before,and meditate on death until you come to an intuitive understanding of ones continued existance. Does this conquer the fear of death? Maybe, maybe not. But at least it was a fear that has been faced in the only way we are able. Utilizing the tools we were given as an embodied being.
I must reiterate once again Enigma, that you are not incorrect in what you say, not at all. I am simply saying that the culmination of the path is easy to mis-understand from the perspective of the seeker.
Those that are struggling need a concrete focus, not an inscrudable pie in the sky sweeping statement, announcing form the perspective of the liberated that who you have been led to believe you are does not exist. From the observers perspective this statement is absolutely true, but one needs to be liberated first, before that understanding has any bearing on them.
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Post by Portto on Oct 4, 2010 7:31:40 GMT -5
That's priceless, Enigma! Nice going, Youmcha!
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Post by enigma on Oct 4, 2010 10:02:52 GMT -5
I must reiterate once again Enigma, that you are not incorrect in what you say, not at all. I am simply saying that the culmination of the path is easy to mis-understand from the perspective of the seeker. Those that are struggling need a concrete focus, not an inscrudable pie in the sky sweeping statement, announcing form the perspective of the liberated that who you have been led to believe you are does not exist. From the observers perspective this statement is absolutely true, but one needs to be liberated first, before that understanding has any bearing on them. I agree, which is why I've been talking about it in specifics of learning to live consciously before tackling the issue of the non-existence of ego or 'What am I?'. We may differ in how unconsciousness is to be approached, if in fact it's even possible to approach it at all. I'm not sure who you see making 'sweeping statements' here. I'm saying some degree of being, as Jed McKenna says, "awake within the dream" is necessary before any serious self inquiry is likely to reveal anything.
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Post by karen on Oct 4, 2010 11:45:56 GMT -5
Is it possible to "choose" not to give your thoughts attention? For me it wasn't really.. it came about other ways. Suddenly I could just let them go in a way I could not previously. I mean, I can choose to meditate, I can choose to sing, but I can't choose to ignore my thoughts. That ability was not available to me, so it was always pretty frustrating to hear "Don't give your thoughts any attention". I just could not pull that off. Focusing to shut down thinking is easy for brief moments, but be thinking, and not giving it any attention, was pretty much impossible. Maybe it still is.. but at least I can just release them very quickly. Yeah I remember feeling the same way when Nisargadatta would say: "Watch your thoughts like you watch the street traffic". When I'd hear that I'd think - "Yeah but I'm in the damn cars completely identified! Only after the smoke settles to I remember it was just an idea!" This was the case for the 1st 3-4 years of seeking. But I've found that when I do a non-conceptual awareness practice (with me - looking at myself with my attention) there is the space necessary to notice the cars as external objects. It's like the non-conceptual awareness practice primes the pump to be conscious whereby I seem to be able to shift attention from one thought/feeling (that has an emotional hook) to not a thought - but back to my practice. Give it a go with whatever non-conceptual awareness practice appeals to you.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 4, 2010 16:18:20 GMT -5
I think once again as Shiokara mentioned earlier, that we are putting the cart before the horse. Zendancer, you made the statement about about thoughts; "This (replacing the thought) can be done, but becoming free of the mind does not involve substituting one kind of thought for another. OK, of course this statement is correct, but, we are jumping over the basic understanding, and going right to a final point of "no-mind". It is easy to say this, and expect one to understand, and I believe that Souley does understand this statement for what it is, a final understanding/release from duality , but the fact remains that most people need clarity of the process to get there. If one is stuck at a certain point, then simple clear instructions are invaluable. The next step comes when the student is ready. Sweeping statements of a path one has formerly traversed successfully makes great academic conversation, but I think the real assistance lies in the simple clarity of one step at a time. Hi Yumcha: What I'm saying is that if attention is placed upon the actual, there is no need to do anything about thoughts. Whatever direct understanding occurs will occur automatically as a result of shifting attention from thoughts to what is actual. Each moment that we are looking or listening is one moment of being free of the mind. Correct me if I'm wrong, but If I understand what you're saying, you're suggesting a mental strategy for improving one's life whereas I'm suggesting giving up all strategies of improvement and totally abandoning mind as an arbiter of life. I do not see how substituting rose-colored glasses for dark glasses could be more effective than removing glasses altogether. Yes, I know that it gets easier and easier to do anything after a bit of practice, but the initial effort to see or hear, even if for only a moment or two, is a simple step. It is certainly no more complicated than substituting one thought for another, and unlike that activity it directly and instantly takes the individual out of the mind. Tai chi will do the same thing, but only if someone actively places attention upon the physical activity to such an extent that mindtalk is ignored. I think we both agree that a certain amount of mental space is necessary before it is possible to watch thoughts without touching them. Part of the mystery is that some people do not want to make ANY effort to escape the prison of the mind. I know people who stay relatively depressed and unhappy because of their thoughts, but they will not do anything to change the situation. If I suggest that they take a walk in the woods, they tell me that they don’t have time. If I suggest a simple form of meditation, they say that they hate meditation. If I explain how their thoughts are jerking them around like a puppet on a string, they may admit this is true, but tell me they have no control over their thoughts (ironically this is true) and no interest in doing anything about it. I thereby conclude that Source wants to suffer in those particular roles. As Byron Katie might say, “That’s just the way of it.” This body/mind started off with breath-counting, and then proceeded to breath following, being the breath, walking meditation (several variations), chanting, shikan taza, staring at individual objects, scanning the entire visual field, listening to whatever sounds were extant, listening to universal sound, contemplating the body, and lots of other stuff. After tons of experimentation, I found that I enjoyed looking at the world, contemplating the body, and listening to universal sound most of all. As time went by, insights occurred, the mind ceased its incessant jabbering, and the body became action-oriented. At a particular point the realization occurred that the body/mind and "what is" were one and the same, and that is what ended the search. From that point on it didn't matter what the mind did; everything was seen as the perfect functioning of Source. Today, despite leading a very active lifestyle and running multiple businesses, the body stays relaxed and unworried. It makes time to sit and watch the clouds float by and goes for long hikes in the mountains. It has discovered that a certain amount of direct interaction with reality is necessary in order to balance the amount of time that mind is used. The mind is a great personal computer to have available but only if we don't get attached to its output or spend too much time using it. Zen Master Seung Sahn became enlightened at a very young age and was sanctioned to teach as a Zen Master at the age of 22. Later, he served in the Korean Army as a chaplain. After he was discharged, he returned to the monastery of his master (Ko Bong) who originally gave him transmission. Ko Bong took one look at Seung Sahn and said with disdain, "You have army eyes. You must become silent for three years." Same sort of thing.
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Post by Portto on Oct 4, 2010 17:10:19 GMT -5
Good one, Zendancer!
Did Seung Sahn stay silent for three years? I hope he wasn't thinking with his eyes.
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Post by yumcha on Oct 4, 2010 17:39:09 GMT -5
It is interesting how many times we can go around the same course, basically saying the same thing, just from a slightly different perspective.
There was a Tibetan Lama in charge of a large monestary. He made the statement, "I have one thousand monks in the monastery, all practicing one thousand different religions."
Every person has a path that works for them perfectly, which invariably ends up at the same destination as everyone else.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 4, 2010 18:41:00 GMT -5
It is interesting how many times we can go around the same course, basically saying the same thing, just from a slightly different perspective. There was a Tibetan Lama in charge of a large monestary. He made the statement, "I have one thousand monks in the monastery, all practicing one thousand different religions." Every person has a path that works for them perfectly, which invariably ends up at the same destination as everyone else. That's a great quote! Very funny; very true.
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Post by peanut on Oct 5, 2010 12:14:51 GMT -5
ZD..what is universal sound?
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Post by zendancer on Oct 5, 2010 13:21:09 GMT -5
ZD..what is universal sound? Peanut: What we call universal sound is the faint roaring/ringing sound that can be heard when the mind is relatively silent. It is a bit like the sound you hear when you hold up a seashell to your ear, but it is there all the time. Once you hear it and focus on it for a while, it is easy to hear it at any time, even in the midst of loud external noises.
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Post by souley on Oct 5, 2010 16:45:11 GMT -5
ZD..what is universal sound? Peanut: What we call universal sound is the faint roaring/ringing sound that can be heard when the mind is relatively silent. It is a bit like the sound you hear when you hold up a seashell to your ear, but it is there all the time. Once you hear it and focus on it for a while, it is easy to hear it at any time, even in the midst of loud external noises. For me it's very high pitch! On the whole attention and thoughts thing, I'm not even sure what I was trying to say. Maybe I just meant that it is impossible as a seeker to not give thoughts attention, and that the means to come by that is indirect, as in what you are suggesting, "become conscious" and "focus on the senses". Think positive thoughts seems to work to some degree for some people, but what got me here in the first place is more of a brutal honesty approach. Everybody agrees we can't "focus on not focusing on thoughts" so I'm happy now
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Post by klaus on Oct 5, 2010 17:01:21 GMT -5
Ego Avoidance-When two people pass each other on the street and don't look each other in the eye.
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Post by Portto on Oct 6, 2010 12:16:11 GMT -5
Part of the mystery is that some people do not want to make ANY effort to escape the prison of the mind. I know people who stay relatively depressed and unhappy because of their thoughts, but they will not do anything to change the situation. Indeed. Not only that they don't want to escape the prison of the mind, but many times suffering increases if someone tries to push them out.
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