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Post by yumcha on Sept 30, 2010 8:08:28 GMT -5
There is no avoiding, ignoring, circumventing or transcending the ego. It is not an option, whether we accept this fact or not does not matter.
Some religions, and spiritual systems claim to have a way around the ego, but they are only avoiding the issue.
We live in a relative world governed by the law of duality. Its very nature guides us to the understanding that the only way to be a whole embodied being is to accept the fact that harmony lies at the fulcrum.
We are embodied beings as long as we exist on this earth, and no amount of mind tricks can change that fact. We were given an opportunity to live in a body so that we could fully embrace all that we experience every day.
To live in the body is to accept the fact that there is an ego that needs our attention. The secret is not that we need to eliminate the ego, but to rewire it. Many people treat the ego as if it is the enemy, and in a sense they are correct, if we are to allow the ego to control us.
There have been numerous studies that indicate that we are able to literally change our mind. By simply resisting the urge to do something we wish to change, we are able to reprogram the circuits in our brain causing a change in circuitry that creates a new activity.
The same is true for the ego, if we are to follow the thought behind our actions, we will find that the root cause generally leads us to realize that there are desires, motivations and agendas that cause us to act in a certain way.
By knowing why we do the things we do, we gain the understanding that we can use to change the way we see the world, and begin to change the tide of the ego.
To accept this is a step in the right direction, to seek to understand who we are and what we are here for is to jump forward. To realize that we are here to use this knowledge to guide others to understanding is a leap forward.
Of course, this is the opinion of one who has found through first hand experience, that avoidance of the ego is just not possible.
Anyone else run headlong into this issue?
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louij
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by louij on Sept 30, 2010 9:22:08 GMT -5
Abiding is not a human trait at all - doing abiding at the moment and missing other humans.....teehee
The silence - absorbing, thanks goodgodness for this site....... a thirst quencher....... love love Louij
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Post by zendancer on Sept 30, 2010 9:26:18 GMT -5
There is no avoiding, ignoring, circumventing or transcending the ego. It is not an option, whether we accept this fact or not does not matter. Some religions, and spiritual systems claim to have a way around the ego, but they are only avoiding the issue. We live in a relative world governed by the law of duality. Its very nature guides us to the understanding that the only way to be a whole embodied being is to accept the fact that harmony lies at the fulcrum. We are embodied beings as long as we exist on this earth, and no amount of mind tricks can change that fact. We were given an opportunity to live in a body so that we could fully embrace all that we experience every day. To live in the body is to accept the fact that there is an ego that needs our attention. The secret is not that we need to eliminate the ego, but to rewire it. Many people treat the ego as if it is the enemy, and in a sense they are correct, if we are to allow the ego to control us. There have been numerous studies that indicate that we are able to literally change our mind. By simply resisting the urge to do something we wish to change, we are able to reprogram the circuits in our brain causing a change in circuitry that creates a new activity. The same is true for the ego, if we are to follow the thought behind our actions, we will find that the root cause generally leads us to realize that there are desires, motivations and agendas that cause us to act in a certain way. By knowing why we do the things we do, we gain the understanding that we can use to change the way we see the world, and begin to change the tide of the ego. To accept this is a step in the right direction, to seek to understand who we are and what we are here for is to jump forward. To realize that we are here to use this knowledge to guide others to understanding is a leap forward. Of course, this is the opinion of one who has found through first hand experience, that avoidance of the ego is just not possible. Anyone else run headlong into this issue? What issue? There are lots of opinions and ideas expressed in this post, but if you threw all of those away, what then? Who would you be without any ideas at all? The truth may be a lot simpler than you imagine. |
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Post by wynn on Sept 30, 2010 9:46:34 GMT -5
What issue? There are lots of opinions and ideas expressed in this post, but if you threw all of those away, what then? Who would you be without any ideas at all? The truth may be a lot simpler than you imagine. How do I surrender all that I am? |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 30, 2010 10:36:38 GMT -5
What issue? There are lots of opinions and ideas expressed in this post, but if you threw all of those away, what then? Who would you be without any ideas at all? The truth may be a lot simpler than you imagine. How do I surrender all that I am? Wynn: In truth, you can't because who you think you are doesn't exist. But let's ignore that for a moment, and I'll speak to the True Wynn. First, do whatever you have to do 100%. Lose yourself in doing. If you are just picking tomatoes in the garden, WITHOUT REFLECTION, where are "you?" Gone. "You" disappear into the action and become one with "what is." "You" reappear only when you shift back to imagination. Who you think you are is imaginary; who you really are is unimaginable. Second, shift your awareness from thoughts to what you can see or hear. If you do this, where are "you?" Gone. "You" disappear in the seeing or hearing and become one-with what is seen or heard. The habit we usually practice all day is imagining. By shifting awareness to what is happening and what is seen or heard we begin to come out of the mind and back to the real world, and we quit reinforcing the idea that there is a doer separate from the world. There is no surrender involved because there is no one who can surrender. There is also no one who can do any of the things I've suggested, but fortunately there is One who will read these words and may or may not follow the suggestions. It is all in the hands of God. |
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Post by yumcha on Sept 30, 2010 11:25:06 GMT -5
Zendancer wrote: "Who would you be without any ideas at all"? And then answered Wynn, "Who you think you are doesn't exist.
OK, So what are we saying exactly...? The concept of loosing the "ego you" in "doing", is a valid concept of course, and comes through practice and experience. But, we really find the "ego self" to be a persistant opponent, particularly when faced with a surprize, such as being cut off in traffic etc... So how is it we overcome this re-appearence, before it happens?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 30, 2010 11:51:30 GMT -5
Zendancer wrote: "Who would you be without any ideas at all"? And then answered Wynn, "Who you think you are doesn't exist. OK, So what are we saying exactly...? The concept of loosing the "ego you" in "doing", is a valid concept of course, and comes through practice and experience. But, we really find the "ego self" to be a persistant opponent, particularly when faced with a surprize, such as being cut off in traffic etc... So how is it we overcome this re-appearence, before it happens? That's a great question, but I've got to go build a wall for a customer and will respond when I get back. Cheers. |
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Post by wynn on Sept 30, 2010 12:08:21 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading your words yumcha, this is a conversation I've frequently explored with my mind.
I used to allow 'mad driver dude' to drive my car. Then I began just observing him, without opinion. He appears less often now, and when he does, I laugh at the foolishness. Subtraction happens easily, but it can not be "done". That which is false will always fall away naturally.
Thank you zendancer, wise words indeed.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 30, 2010 14:48:42 GMT -5
Zendancer wrote: "Who would you be without any ideas at all"? And then answered Wynn, "Who you think you are doesn't exist. OK, So what are we saying exactly...? The concept of loosing the "ego you" in "doing", is a valid concept of course, and comes through practice and experience. But, we really find the "ego self" to be a persistant opponent, particularly when faced with a surprize, such as being cut off in traffic etc... So how is it we overcome this re-appearence, before it happens? Yumcha: Yes, the appearance of ego is persistent because it is our earliest and most practiced thought structure. Someone wrote that the average person thinks 50,000 thoughts per day. If this is true, then probably 40,000 of those thoughts revolve around the idea of personal selfhood. We can observe how many times the verbal words "I," "my", "me," or "mine" appear every day in order to verify the general truth of this. Buddhism talks about the five skandhas as the source of selfhood--feelings, thoughts, perceptions, etc. Nevertheless, selfhood, is an illusion. Seeing through the illusion is what ultimately frees us from the illusion. So, let's look at the example of someone cutting us off in traffic. Many people, depending upon their personality and past experiences, may get angry when someone cuts them off in traffic. They may think, "How dare that person do that to me? Who do they think they are? I get so mad when people are inconsiderate like this." Etc. Later, they may get mad a second or third time when they remember the incident. What is the difference between this response and someone's response who has seen through the illusion of selfhood? Anger may arise, but the anger occurs to no one. It is an empty manifestation of reality. Or, humor may arise at the fact that someone is in such a rush. Whatever happens, it usually isn't personal and there is no second-guessing or thinking that reality should be manifesting differently than it is. It is only when we identify with thoughts about selfhood that the appearance of selfhood arises. If thoughts aren't there, then selfhood isn't there. If you see selfhood as a persistent opponent, then you are persisting in creating the very opposition you perceive. After all, there are not two of you. You asked, "How do we overcome this re-appearance before it happens?" Who could possibly overcome what doesn't exist? It is like saying, "I don;t want the bad me to show up," when there is no me in the first place. There is only.............THIS. Eckhart Tolle supposedly woke up after having the thought, "I can't live with myself any longer." The strangeness of that thought stoppped his mind because he realized that there couldn't be two involved in that issue. Who was it that couldn't live with whom? It was like throwing a wrench into the cogs of a machine and consequently his mind ground to a stop and he plunged into the numinous void of his True Self. I was at a Gangaji satsang once when a woman said to Gangaji, "I'm from Germany. I've been pursuing the truth for many years and have visited sages all over the world and read hundreds of books. I saw your face on a book in a bookstore and had to come see you, but now that I'm here, I'm totally confused and no longer understand anything." Gangaji said, "Wonderful! This is the collapsing of the structures of thought. Just stop and be still." This is what often happens. We go along modifying our model of the world until the entire model collapses and we are left not knowing anything. Only when all models have collapsed do we attain what Suszuki Roshi called "Beginner's mind." Only then are we ready to step into the unknown and start apprehending the truth previously obscured by our thoughts. Just for fun, try to summon forth the ego that you wish to avoid. You won't be able to find it because there is no such thing. It is all a trick of the mind. |
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Post by enigma on Oct 1, 2010 0:06:59 GMT -5
Zendancer wrote: "Who would you be without any ideas at all"? And then answered Wynn, "Who you think you are doesn't exist. OK, So what are we saying exactly...? The concept of loosing the "ego you" in "doing", is a valid concept of course, and comes through practice and experience. But, we really find the "ego self" to be a persistant opponent, particularly when faced with a surprize, such as being cut off in traffic etc... So how is it we overcome this re-appearence, before it happens? Very important question and has been addressed well, but lets see if anything else shows up. It's useful to be aware when we turn ego into something more than a structure of thoughts/beliefs and animate it such that we find ourselves in opposition to it. It's sorta like believing a streetlight is a UFO, and then sneaking up on it only to find it's a street light, then going home and bringing the dog inside the house for fear that the aliens will beam it up to their spaceship and do genetic experiments on it. There's an unconscious disconnect that is pretty easy to resolve into conscious awareness. It goes something like: 'Oh, wait, that's just a thought that I'm used to believing is true and gains power only from my belief in it.' As Mooji likes to say "No thought is self employed." The issue of overcoming an ego response is similar in nature. As Zen says, there are not two. An expression of anger may very well happen, and sometimes it is appropriate for reasons that may or may not be understood, but there need not be someone to claim ownership of it. Sometimes such responses happen, and are watched, sometimes with an odd amusement, but nobody is found who is actually angry. It's not in any way seen to be a problem. On the other hand, if there is an owner of the anger, felt to be 'caught inside' the anger itself, then there is identification and belief, and this is what needs to be looked into to see if the belief is actually true. |
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Post by shiokara on Oct 1, 2010 19:48:29 GMT -5
I don't believe there is any way to avoid the ego at the beginning of our search for true self. it is the examination of motivation, desire and chaos in lives that lead us to the conclusion to find our true self. it is the questioning that is the exercise that drives the search. To avoid the concept of ego in the beginning is like saying just deny the existence of thought. Denial has it's own fantasy. Without this questioning of self then there would not be any koans or zen stories.
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Post by yumcha on Oct 2, 2010 9:51:56 GMT -5
Zendancer, I certainly agree with your explanation of “not minding the ego,” and having come up through Zen, understand the concept of the of the observer, observing.
Having said that, one would surmise through reading through your writing, and certainly through Enigma’s, that the method being employed to “overcome” the dual nature of our existence before “liberation,” is simply a “mind trick.”
Is this not then, “using the mind, to defeat the very mind one wishes to defeat?”
So, is there a non-esoteric way to describe the mechanics behind this understanding that doesn’t require a degree in engineering and theology?
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Post by enigma on Oct 2, 2010 11:25:05 GMT -5
Maybe we could say that what is not of mind is noticing. All clarity is the result of this simple, effortless noticing, and since all concepts are inventions of mind, it's the noticing of what is NOT so. The effortless noticing of what is not so requires no knowledge at all since it's the knowledge that is not so.
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Post by yumcha on Oct 2, 2010 11:38:46 GMT -5
I see what you are saying, and "notice" that you and I are thinking above the mechanics of simplicity. I still think that there is a way to boil these things down into thier most basic essence, using direct modern vernacular as a vehicle to clear understanding.
We are obviously reading from the same "sheet of music," which means we need to throw it away and think in the most basic terms.
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Post by shiokara on Oct 2, 2010 12:33:08 GMT -5
It's interesting that basically what's being said, is get over yourself, without self examination. Not knowing the reason behind the actions seems like putting cart before the horse. If you don't self examine then it's saying deny any understanding.
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