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Post by yumcha on Oct 2, 2010 16:36:39 GMT -5
Absolutely Shiokara, now I think we are coming to the simple mechanics.
Self-examination seems almost a "forbidden topic" on the spiritual path, however interesting enough, one is unable to achieve true liberation without first doing just that.
Can one hope to achieve the release of the ego-self any other way? If one does not first understand themselves, and where they are coming from, how can one hope to "not mind the ego" if there is no full understanding of what one has to work with in the first place.
There is much to say in Neo Adviata about the stepping away form the duality of the conceptual mind, and functioning as the observer, but one must be very careful to first follow the steps of those who have gone before, to expect to have a "clean break" from the duality of embodiment.
If there is anything left over in the ego-self that has not been addressed, it will be sure to expose itself at some point, usually when one least expects it.
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Post by loverofall on Oct 2, 2010 16:52:35 GMT -5
This is my experience. There has been such clear moments over the past year but fear always arises and other patterns to block the clarity. I have just really committed to serious meditation of 20 minutes in morning and night and boy has that stirred up some resistance. Its all good and its experiences but not comfortable at all. When strong resistance is upon you its hard to to do anything but wait it out.
The lizard brain holds emotional painful memories and will trigger all sort of things to protect the heart.
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Post by shiokara on Oct 2, 2010 19:23:01 GMT -5
Okay loverofall, I have a couple of questions about this fear you speak of and ego avoidance. First what kind of fear? A mental fear can be thought through and thus to begin to understand where it comes from. (thus the thinking it through using a little psychology to help the progression toward the goal, not avoiding ego.) Or some other fear. This is where the mind can be calmed or tricked into believing that it doesn't exist, denying it's fears when in reality you have only covered or tricked yourself. To deny the mind body connection is to deny life, in real life circumstances. It's easy to say don't think of self and be of no mind.
Here are two Zen stories, one of no mind and other of fear and ego.
Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.Desiring to show his attainment, he said: "The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received."Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry. "If nothing exists," inquired Dokuon, "where did this anger come from?" Examining fear and ego. Second story.
After winning several archery contests, the young and rather boastful champion challenged a Zen master who was renowned for his skill as an archer. The young man demonstrated remarkable technical proficiency when he hit a distant bull's eye on his first try, and then split that arrow with his second shot. "There," he said to the old man, "see if you can match that!" Undisturbed, the master did not draw his bow, but rather motioned for the young archer to follow him up the mountain. Curious about the old fellow's intentions, the champion followed him high into the mountain until they reached a deep chasm spanned by a rather flimsy and shaky log. Calmly stepping out onto the middle of the unsteady and certainly perilous bridge, the old master picked a far away tree as a target, drew his bow, and fired a clean, direct hit. "Now it is your turn," he said as he gracefully stepped back onto the safe ground. Staring with terror into the seemingly bottomless and beckoning abyss, the young man could not force himself to step out onto the log, no less shoot at a target. "You have much skill with your bow," the master said, sensing his challenger's predicament, "but you have little skill with the mind that lets loose the shot."
What to do, does the mind play tricks or is it real? With a great amount of contemplation of self, do you find true understanding or learn a mind trick. The proof is in the reality of life, not the denial of it. How can I avoid real life?
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Post by souley on Oct 3, 2010 7:34:41 GMT -5
This is my experience. There has been such clear moments over the past year but fear always arises and other patterns to block the clarity. I have just really committed to serious meditation of 20 minutes in morning and night and boy has that stirred up some resistance. Its all good and its experiences but not comfortable at all. When strong resistance is upon you its hard to to do anything but wait it out. The lizard brain holds emotional painful memories and will trigger all sort of things to protect the heart. I have met resistance that is so powerful that it is hardly possible to know if the pain is physical or emotional. It has surfaced many times this last year. It's like beingness has seen through a egoic protection pattern, it is pointless to fall for it again, and instead all of this pain is released. Then you are faced with pure pain/resistance instead of the egoic defense pattern. Then the resistance comes to another phase, where the pain itself is habitually resisted. Aaah so much pain, what should I do, how do I properly handle it? I did the work on this pain the other day, and found out that I was scared of releasing simply because of fear of death. I had no idea about that link. The trigger was a question like, "What do you fear would happen if you didn't believe that you should be able to get rid of the pain?". Instinct response - I would die. Strange stuff Anyway just wanted to say I recognize myself and my experience in pretty much every post you make, and especially this incredibly strong resistance. Sometimes I think it is like pure pain, inherited pain from many past lives or from the world in general.. I just cant figure out how there can be so much of it:)
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2010 10:24:05 GMT -5
"Anyway just wanted to say I recognize myself and my experience in pretty much every post you make, and especially this incredibly strong resistance. Sometimes I think it is like pure pain, inherited pain from many past lives or from the world in general.. I just cant figure out how there can be so much of it:)"
Yes. I say the self examination is necessary to become conscious. (I don't mean enlightened) From a place of relative consciousness, it may be simultaneously noticed that there is no end to the pain, and that it is not 'my pain'. Thoughts/feelings arise out of a singular source and are filtered through an individuated conditioning. To be conscious is to resolve the unconscious conditioning and to clarify the illusory nature of the thoughts, not to put an end to the thoughts arising from what is sometimes called the collective consciousness. Humanity is in deep agony at it's core and is only vaguely aware of this, and 'your' mind is not separate from it. A deep compassion may arise in response to this realization, but it is compassion for the Self.
Thoughts and fears continue to arise but there is no person who can put an end to those thoughts, so what to do? At some point, attention must be turned away from what has been seen as illusory thoughts happening in the consciousness of humanity. This is what it means to 'not mind'. They are happening by themselves and clarity about the nature of your individuated mind may reveal this, but will not put an end to them.
So, both of the approaches that are being talked about here may be needed. To 'know thyself' is critical in order to be conscious enough to reveal the illusory nature of mind, and then one must turn the attention away from this spontaneous arising of thoughts. If there is no attention given them, they come and they go, and they leave no trace. By themselves, they are benign. They gain the power to create suffering through the attention they are given.
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Post by souley on Oct 3, 2010 10:34:06 GMT -5
Is it possible to "choose" not to give your thoughts attention? For me it wasn't really.. it came about other ways. Suddenly I could just let them go in a way I could not previously. I mean, I can choose to meditate, I can choose to sing, but I can't choose to ignore my thoughts. That ability was not available to me, so it was always pretty frustrating to hear "Don't give your thoughts any attention". I just could not pull that off. Focusing to shut down thinking is easy for brief moments, but be thinking, and not giving it any attention, was pretty much impossible. Maybe it still is.. but at least I can just release them very quickly.
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Post by yumcha on Oct 3, 2010 12:09:48 GMT -5
OK Enigma, Souley is a perfect example of a person who is reaching out for answers to a very real concern.
In your post you tell Souley:
"Thoughts and fears continue to arise but there is no person who can put an end to those thoughts, so what to do? At some point, attention must be turned away from what has been seen as illusory thoughts happening in the consciousness of humanity. This is what it means to 'not mind'. They are happening by themselves and clarity about the nature of your individuated mind may reveal this, but will not put an end to them."
This explanation is accurate, however the esoteric nature of what you are saying is lost in the very wording. In the most simplistic terms, how does one allow thoughts to "flow through" and not stick?
I am not trying to cause a problem, I am simply saying that it does not help someone reaching out for help to hear:
"Attention must be turned away from what has been seen as illusory thoughts happening in the consciousness of humanity." "They are happening by themselves."
Souley, in simple terms you must re-wire your brain. How does one do this? You simply re-direct your thoughts. When a negative thought arises, you replace the thought with something positive.
Is this a mind trick? Absolutely. This is why we first self-examine. The very act of tracing the source of each individual fear down to its roots, teaches one to utilize the mind to redirect our thoughts.
It is very much like the "Karate Kid" learning complex martial arts moves by simple motions, like "wax on, wax off," only you are using your mind.
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Post by karen on Oct 3, 2010 12:22:47 GMT -5
In my experience, to turn away from thoughts/feelings and shift attention can only happen with me when I have something else to put my attention on. In my case (in the last few months) I've been putting attention onto looking at me as in John Sherman's practice (he doesn't talk about shifting attention - he just talks about looking at oneself only).
For example, an uncomfortable memory can arise, and then I will say/feel: "It's not about that: it's about this" - then I focus on the feeling of me and look at it - making sure I drop everything except the looking to the best of my ability.
This is immensely easier to do if I also do the same when I feel pleasant/happy - "It's not about that: it's about this". Or as often as I can remember to do so to simply look at the me-ness of me.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 3, 2010 13:47:08 GMT -5
Souley: We start off with the illusion of selfhood--that we have personal control over what the body/mind is doing. Later, with a bit more clarity, we realize that we have no control over what is happening. Later still, and with a yet more clarity, we realize that the truth is beyond either the idea of control or the idea of no control.
Nevertheless, as Karen noted, for most people, fighting with thoughts or trying to stop thoughts is useless, but attention can be shifted to other things. Thoughts then diminish in both intensity and frequency because they aren't being fed one's attention. This is why I often advise people to look at the world in the same way that little children look at the world--without naming, judging, evaluating, comparing, etc. Look at the clouds, the trees, the animals, the fields, the rivers, etc. Take a walk in the woods. Go sit by a stream or a lake and watch. Most of us live in our heads, and we talk to ourselves all day long, but its possible to break that habit and become aware of the real world by giving it our attention and taking attention away from thoughts. I guarantee that the real world is endlessly fascinating after it is rediscovered and given one's attention.
Yumcha, you wrote: "Souley, in simple terms you must re-wire your brain. How does one do this? You simply re-direct your thoughts. When a negative thought arises, you replace the thought with something positive."
Yes, this can be done, but becoming free of the mind does not involve substituting one kind of thought for another. One becomes free of the mind by ignoring the mind altogether and placing one's attention elsewhere. Thinking, whether positive thoughts or negative thoughts, is still thinking. As Tolle points out somewhere, attention can be placed anywhere. Just as an experiment, try placing it on the "exterior world" for a while. Just look or listen. Try looking at one object or try scanning the entire visual field. It is usually easier to sustain attention on reality while scanning rather than focusing narrowly. Try it while driving on the highway. Your body can drive the car with very little attention on the driving process. Look at the fields, the trees, the sky, the other cars on the highway, your hands on the steering wheel. What can you see? Hawks or crows in the trees? Deer or rabbits or groundhogs in the fields? Just play with it and see what happens.
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Post by yumcha on Oct 3, 2010 15:30:06 GMT -5
I think once again as Shiokara mentioned earlier, that we are putting the cart before the horse.
Zendancer, you made the statement about about thoughts;
"This (replacing the thought) can be done, but becoming free of the mind does not involve substituting one kind of thought for another.
OK, of course this statement is correct, but, we are jumping over the basic understanding, and going right to a final point of "no-mind".
It is easy to say this, and expect one to understand, and I believe that Souley does understand this statement for what it is, a final understanding/release from duality , but the fact remains that most people need clarity of the process to get there. If one is stuck at a certain point, then simple clear instructions are invaluable. The next step comes when the student is ready.
Sweeping statements of a path one has formerly traversed successfully makes great academic conversation, but I think the real assistance lies in the simple clarity of one step at a time.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2010 20:04:59 GMT -5
Is it possible to "choose" not to give your thoughts attention? For me it wasn't really.. it came about other ways. Suddenly I could just let them go in a way I could not previously. I mean, I can choose to meditate, I can choose to sing, but I can't choose to ignore my thoughts. That ability was not available to me, so it was always pretty frustrating to hear "Don't give your thoughts any attention". I just could not pull that off. Focusing to shut down thinking is easy for brief moments, but be thinking, and not giving it any attention, was pretty much impossible. Maybe it still is.. but at least I can just release them very quickly. This is why I said in the first half of that post that we must become conscious first. Most folks aren't really aware of the absurd places their mind's take them. Most of the stories aren't real, some are positively insane, and none of them are necessary. Part of becoming conscious is to notice this. Once the absurdity, destructiveness, pointlessness and falsity of nearly all these stories is noticed, most of them simply don't happen anymore, and the rest are recognized for what they are and aren't followed down the block and around the corner. This is all part of becoming conscious. To try to be clear, I didn't suggest you could choose to not give your thoughts any attention, and I wasn't suggesting you try to do this. I'm suggesting that you simply notice them and see them for what they are. If you do, you won't want to think them or follow them in the first place.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2010 20:06:10 GMT -5
OK Enigma, Souley is a perfect example of a person who is reaching out for answers to a very real concern. In your post you tell Souley: "Thoughts and fears continue to arise but there is no person who can put an end to those thoughts, so what to do? At some point, attention must be turned away from what has been seen as illusory thoughts happening in the consciousness of humanity. This is what it means to 'not mind'. They are happening by themselves and clarity about the nature of your individuated mind may reveal this, but will not put an end to them." This explanation is accurate, however the esoteric nature of what you are saying is lost in the very wording. In the most simplistic terms, how does one allow thoughts to "flow through" and not stick? I am not trying to cause a problem, I am simply saying that it does not help someone reaching out for help to hear: "Attention must be turned away from what has been seen as illusory thoughts happening in the consciousness of humanity." "They are happening by themselves." Souley, in simple terms you must re-wire your brain. How does one do this? You simply re-direct your thoughts. When a negative thought arises, you replace the thought with something positive. Is this a mind trick? Absolutely. This is why we first self-examine. The very act of tracing the source of each individual fear down to its roots, teaches one to utilize the mind to redirect our thoughts. It is very much like the "Karate Kid" learning complex martial arts moves by simple motions, like "wax on, wax off," only you are using your mind. Positive thinking doesn't work.
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Post by yumcha on Oct 3, 2010 22:07:11 GMT -5
Positive thinking is only a start. It is the way to re-wire destructive thinking patterns that distract one on the path to the state of no-mind.
If these destructive patterns are not addressed, they will continue to cause a distraction when one attempts to calm the mind. (We all begin in harsh duality, its a struggle.)
Remember, I am not addressing the final result of no-mind.
There is no end to the descriptions of attaining liberation, I am (very unsuccessfully it would seem) trying to address the mid-path crisis of misunderstanding how to get to the state of becoming conscious, or no-mind.
Where do seekers come when they are stuck ? Don't those that have tread the path before them keep the gold and dispose of the dross? Why not make it easier for someone else?
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Post by yumcha on Oct 3, 2010 22:36:35 GMT -5
I should explain what I mean by re-wiring with positive thought.
Re-wiring can be done by taking a fear, say "I am afraid of fish," for example.
One needs to look at the problem for what it is, why am I afraid of fish? Then follow the train of thought, this may take a little meditating and focus, and follow the thought to the point of origin.
Now, I don't claim this will work for every fear, you may have to do some research, maybe crack a book or two, it all depends on the fear or thought, but you can come to terms with a fear by looking it in the eye. Believe me, it worked for many of my peers as well as for me.
When the fear is addressed, and looked at for what it is, one can set that fear aside knowing that it wont control your thoughts any longer.
I know, it sounds simplistic, but most things are. We over complicate things as a rule, but it is not required. Facing your fears is certainly not easy, or comfortable, or even safe, but if you wanted comfort and safety you never would have gone seeking liberation and beyond.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2010 23:00:49 GMT -5
Positive thinking is only a start. It is the way to re-wire destructive thinking patterns that distract one on the path to the state of no-mind. If these destructive patterns are not addressed, they will continue to cause a distraction when one attempts to calm the mind. (We all begin in harsh duality, its a struggle.) Remember, I am not addressing the final result of no-mind. There is no end to the descriptions of attaining liberation, I am (very unsuccessfully it would seem) trying to address the mid-path crisis of misunderstanding how to get to the state of becoming conscious, or no-mind. Where do seekers come when they are stuck ? Don't those that have tread the path before them keep the gold and dispose of the dross? Why not make it easier for someone else? Becoming conscious is not the same thing as no-mind.
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