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Post by drifter on Apr 7, 2010 20:13:38 GMT -5
People on this forum have expressed they don't want beliefs they want direct experience.
Can some of you explain about direct experience?
What does it mean to you? And please explain why you want to get rid of beliefs.
Thank you.
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Post by zendancer on Apr 8, 2010 0:13:56 GMT -5
Drifter: Great questions. Most of them have been answered on other threads, but I'll try to recap the issues here.
Let's use one example. Some people believe in God and some people do not. A few people, like the ones on this website, want something more than a belief or faith in this sort of thing; they want some sort of direct experience, like stumping their toe on a rock, that is concrete and definitive. If God exists, they want to see God, or touch God, or somehow tangibly know the truth one way or the other. They aren't looking for an intellectual experience or an emotional experience; they want a direct experience through the body. If God exists, they want something like the experience Paul had on the road to Damascus--something that will remove all doubt forever.
Many people on this website have had Damascus-road kinds of experiences. After such an experience, they don;t have to have a belief about God or faith in God; they know the truth in the same way as someone who knows that he's stubbed his toe on a rock. It is unquestionable.
Most beliefs do not matter very much, and there is no need to get rid of them. I have never been to Moscow, but I believe that the city exists and looks like photographs that I have seen. If I flew to Moscow and experienced the city for myself, I would no longer need to believe in its existence. I would know. I have never met President Obama, but I believe that he is the President and lives in the White House. If I went to the White House and shook hands with him, then I would no longer need to believe that he's there. I'd know. Spiritual issues, however, are a different matter altogether. If I want to experience God, I can't get in a spaceship and fly to wherever his heavenly realm is supposed to be and meet him face to face. Fortunately, it is possible to have a concrete experience of what is called "God" (it isn't a he or even a thing) that will put the issue to rest forever, and that is the goal of most seekers on this website.
Most people believe in space, time, energy, and matter, but do these things exist, and if so, what manner of things are they? Most people believe that they have control over their actions, but is this true, and how is it possible to find out? The answer to every existential and/or spiritual question is already present, but at varying depths of mind. To get the answers, one must sometimes dive deep and be very persistent, but what is being sought is an experience that is just as real as stubbing your toe on a rock.
Does this help answer your question?
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Post by cabinintheforest on Apr 8, 2010 0:15:12 GMT -5
sorry the above question was from me i was posting from a different computer waits til people answer
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Post by cabinintheforest on Apr 8, 2010 0:20:19 GMT -5
zendancer you have explained it im starting to understand now what this whole forum is about and the people on it it is becoming clearer
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Post by karen on Apr 8, 2010 13:49:26 GMT -5
Excellent!
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Post by lightmystic on Apr 8, 2010 13:53:14 GMT -5
If someone blindsides you with a hammer to the head, that is a direct experience. If you are aware that you are about to be hit with a hammer, then there is a whole story created, in terms of judgments, feelings about the situation, etc.. If one moment you are there and the next moment there is a sharp spike to the head, then there is no belief system to be able to even think about it in that moment. There is a just a visceral knowing that something happened, and a visceral response to that (like lying there and moaning might be an example of a visceral response - or perhaps bleeding everwhere. ) So it's more on that level of instinctual/visceral/gut level knowing, rather than any idea of any sort. Does that make sense? People on this forum have expressed they don't want beliefs they want direct experience. Can some of you explain about direct experience? What does it mean to you? And please explain why you want to get rid of beliefs. Thank you.
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Post by BobTheBuilder on Jun 16, 2010 10:42:39 GMT -5
Can any of you explain what a direct experiece is like in non duality? Or it is beyond words?
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Post by runstill on Jun 16, 2010 12:26:50 GMT -5
Hi Bobthebuilder it might be help full to tell what you think what direct experience is. Asking the question means you have thoughts on what it is.
cheers...
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Post by zendancer on Jun 16, 2010 12:52:52 GMT -5
Hi Bob: Yes, direct experience, itself, is beyond words. If I smell a rose, there is no way to give someone else the direct experience of smelling the rose through words. He/she would have to smell it for him/herself. Most people, of course, have smelled roses, so most people would understand what I'm talking about if I described walking through a garden and smelling some roses.
From a nondualistic perspective the act of smelling a rose is unified and empty. If we are not thinking, then there is no rose and no smeller of a rose. There is only ____________. Oneness is interacting with itself. If we start thinking, then we usually cognize an experiencer and something that is experienced, an observer and the observed. When we think, therefore, we artificially and imaginatively divide "what is" into imaginary states. In truth, beyond words or thoughts, there is only _____________, a unified suchness.
With practice, a human can learn to suspend thought and abide in silent presence. He/she then does whatever other humans do, but there is no reflectivity or imagining involved in it. There is simply __________.
___________is even beyond the idea of oneness. Does that answer the question?
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Post by Me on Jun 21, 2010 12:21:01 GMT -5
Can you directly experience non duality all of the time?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 21, 2010 16:05:57 GMT -5
Can you directly experience non duality all of the time? Me: Who we are is an unimaginable oneness. It is oneness that experiences everything, whether it is realized by a particular human being or not. If we learn to shift attention from thoughts to "what is," then we can experience oneness without separation at any time. If the body/mind looks around and sees "what is" without distinction, then what is seen is not divided into imaginary states. There is neither an observer nor anything (any separate thing) that is observed. Oneness is simply interacting with itself in a state of emptiness. This is what it does all the time, but it may periodically choose to consciously do this. People who know who they are, and who have learned to enter the mystery of their being at will, usually oscillate between periods of direct perception and periods of thought. What frequently distinguishes such people is their deep enjoyment of immersion in the mystery of their being, and they may spend long periods of time simply looking, listening, feeling, smelling, and tasting in the total absence of thoughts. They are in love with "what is" and they don't like to psychologically wander (in the mind) too far away from "what is" for too long a time. This is why most people who become enlightened continue to perform what might be thought of as "practices" after enlightenment. From their perspective their periods of attentiveness to "what is" are not practices at all. They are simply periods of abiding in presence. One last point: there is a difference between what might be called "intentional relative samadhi" and what might be called "UN-intentional relative samadhi." The farther people go on the path of non duality, the less reflective they become. This means that there is often no effort to be in any particular state of mind. They live in a general state of non-reflective flow in which they go about their business, but without any sense of directing anything. They are like little children at play. They enjoy what they're doing, but they're not reflecting about it. They are absorbed in being. By contrast, at certain specific times people who have attained freedom may become tired of thinking or just want to relax and spend some time in intentional silence. There are times, for example, when the body/mind may want to sit in silence, listen to universal sound, and sink into absolute samadhi. At other times it may decide to leave the ordinary go-go world behind and go for a hike in the woods while simply looking at plants, animals, clouds, etc. or listening to the wind or the bubbling of creeks. Does this answer your question?
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lobo
Full Member
Posts: 193
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Post by lobo on Jun 24, 2010 8:20:41 GMT -5
People on this forum have expressed they don't want beliefs they want direct experience. Can some of you explain about direct experience? What does it mean to you? And please explain why you want to get rid of beliefs. Thank you. In general it means no, or less processing of input. But what has not been mentioned so far is that even the experience of pain, as in lightmystics example requires a great deal of processing by the nervous system before it is percieved. If it is taken all the way down without any filtering by a nervous system there is emptiness, physical emptiness. The purely unconditioned experience of conciousness or awareness is what I expect most people are pointing to. Our most direct perceptions of the phsical world are so extremely filtered, abstracted, and structured that we do not see what is really there, only a representation that the brain can deal with.
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Post by divinity on Jun 30, 2010 12:02:47 GMT -5
I think that the confusion lies in the fact that from the beginning of time (LOL) people who have had direct experiences have shared the details with others who then tried to apply that to themselves. The holy books are full of all that. My direct experience can only tell you the experience I had and how it effected me. When we measure ourselves with the yardsticks of others it is useless. People have direct experiences every day but misinterpret them due to conditioned preconception taught to them as children by well meaning but misinformed adults.
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Post by divinity on Jun 30, 2010 12:04:06 GMT -5
What does the"Karma: "1, "Karma: 2" under our names mean anyway?
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Post by karen on Jun 30, 2010 12:50:09 GMT -5
I call it "The Watts Riots" syndrome.
When I was young I heard about all the rioting over in Watts back in the '60s which seemed like a huge historical event that was bigger than life.
Then in the '90s we had the LA riots, and while they were actually far larger and more damage was done in them, it didn't seem as big as the Watts riots.
So too do experiences in the historical record seem bigger than life as do other people's experiences. With other people - their experience is "out there" and as such is HUGE! My experiences are "in here" and as such seem tiny.
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