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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2019 12:07:53 GMT -5
"God" doesn't micromanage. That would defeat the whole purpose of creation, the manifest. Any notion of " control" is a micromanagment 'dusty. The c0ckpit is empty, ain't noone at the wheel, and the state, is quite headless. So, All This, arises from Nothing? The Periodic Table, ordered, that arose from Nothing? I don't understand your basis of the origin of everything. E I get, he's an admitted atheist. He has zero explanation for All This. So what does the word Capital C Consciousness mean to you? Consciousness does not in any way effect movement of any kind? Your own body, how did it arise? It's ordered, yes? Where did that order come from? All I'm saying is that order comes from order. Consciousness only comes from Consciousness.
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 7, 2019 12:13:47 GMT -5
That's absurd. I'll ask again (post above) What's dreaming the dream? If we are all merely dream actors, then the Dreamer has all the control. Yes? No? You're posing an existential question. It's possible to observe and agree with the fact that what appears to us is ordered - and beautifully and intricately so. But the implication that this was done deliberately by some sort of entity is a trick of the mind. It's simply false. Why do you go to church on Sundays?
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2019 16:00:23 GMT -5
You're posing an existential question. It's possible to observe and agree with the fact that what appears to us is ordered - and beautifully and intricately so. But the implication that this was done deliberately by some sort of entity is a trick of the mind. It's simply false. Then explain all this business about you going to church with your wife and your mention sometimes about that. Does your wife know you think all that's malarkey? There doesn't have to be either all control or no control. That's tiny mind thinking. You've never heard of Process Philosophy? Alfred North Whitehead? I didn't know you were wholly in E's camp. The only way I could ever walk in there was after having gone through a process of questioning everything I believe. Belief and faith are antonyms, and peace, is an absence. What the faithful pray to is entirely beyond any philosophy. What they think they believe is really of no consequence, it just seems otherwise to some of them, to one degree or another, from individual to individual.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2019 16:01:38 GMT -5
So then, how can you be so certain that it's possible to engage with another's ego without one? Ramana, Niz, Bodhidharma, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Seng-Ts'an, Jesus, Huineng, Hypatia, Simone Weil, Bernadette Roberts, Hui-k'o, Ju-ching. Give me some time, I'll think of more. Nobody here, that's for sure. All second hand dude.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2019 16:04:39 GMT -5
Any notion of " control" is a micromanagment 'dusty. The c0ckpit is empty, ain't noone at the wheel, and the state, is quite headless. So, All This, arises from Nothing? The Periodic Table, ordered, that arose from Nothing? I don't understand your basis of the origin of everything. E I get, he's an admitted atheist. He has zero explanation for All This. So what does the word Capital C Consciousness mean to you? Consciousness does not in any way effect movement of any kind? Your own body, how did it arise? It's ordered, yes? Where did that order come from? All I'm saying is that order comes from order. Consciousness only comes from Consciousness. Anything and everything and all time are but a raindrop "relative" to the infinity that you are, and they're really not even that. This question of origins is another version of the existential question. No material sequence of events will ever answer that question for you. You'll never find yourself in what appears to you.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2019 16:08:37 GMT -5
Any notion of " control" is a micromanagment 'dusty. The c0ckpit is empty, ain't noone at the wheel, and the state, is quite headless. So, All This, arises from Nothing? The Periodic Table, ordered, that arose from Nothing? I don't understand your basis of the origin of everything. E I get, he's an admitted atheist. He has zero explanation for All This. So what does the word Capital C Consciousness mean to you? Consciousness does not in any way effect movement of any kind? Your own body, how did it arise? It's ordered, yes? Where did that order come from? All I'm saying is that order comes from order. Consciousness only comes from Consciousness. I will give an example. Say I have 20 CD's. I play one. When I play the next one I put the last in the case just emptied, not it's own case. I do this for a month. So no CD is in it's own case, or if it happens to be this us by chance. Now, if it us true that there us no original ordering principle in the universe, and this is what E, Laughter and sharon maintain, then how does the order we see come about? Go back to my CD's. The CD's will never each return to their own case, unless sdp exerts the necessary energy and knowledge to do so. IOW, it will not happen by itself. Now, physicists cannot say how, but they know that the universe was in it's most ordered state, at the beginning. IOW, the entropy the universe as a whole is increasing, moving from more order to less order. Do you three care to explain order, if it is as you say, there is no ordering someNOTHING?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2019 16:10:15 GMT -5
Then explain all this business about you going to church with your wife and your mention sometimes about that. Does your wife know you think all that's malarkey? There doesn't have to be either all control or no control. That's tiny mind thinking. You've never heard of Process Philosophy? Alfred North Whitehead? I didn't know you were wholly in E's camp. The only way I could ever walk in there was after having gone through a process of questioning everything I believe. Belief and faith are antonyms, and peace, is an absence. What the faithful pray to is entirely beyond any philosophy. What they think they believe is really of no consequence, it just seems otherwise to some of them, to one degree or another, from individual to individual. But does your wife know this is your view?
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2019 16:13:57 GMT -5
You're posing an existential question. It's possible to observe and agree with the fact that what appears to us is ordered - and beautifully and intricately so. But the implication that this was done deliberately by some sort of entity is a trick of the mind. It's simply false. Why do you go to church on Sundays? Sumthin' to do. Meditation is prayer without asking or apologizing for anything, and shikantaza is meditation with no central point of focus .. just pure, here and now. It all has the potential to lead to the same place, what you call returning to source, resting in Awareness. It's all a bask in stillness. I can see how people get attracted and attached to the rituals that help them get there, and it's very different in a group setting than alone. What the people around me believe means absolutely nothing to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 16:15:26 GMT -5
So, All This, arises from Nothing? The Periodic Table, ordered, that arose from Nothing? I don't understand your basis of the origin of everything. E I get, he's an admitted atheist. He has zero explanation for All This. So what does the word Capital C Consciousness mean to you? Consciousness does not in any way effect movement of any kind? Your own body, how did it arise? It's ordered, yes? Where did that order come from? All I'm saying is that order comes from order. Consciousness only comes from Consciousness. I will give an example. Say I have 20 CD's. I play one. When I play the next one I put the last in the case just emptied, not it's own case. I do this for a month. So no CD is in it's own case, or if it happens to be this us by chance. Now, if it us true that there us no original ordering principle in the universe, and this is what E, Laughter and sharon maintain, then how does the order we see come about? Go back to my CD's. The CD's will never each return to their own case, unless sdp exerts the necessary energy and knowledge to do so. IOW, it will not happen by itself. Now, physicists cannot say how, but they know that the universe was in it's most ordered state, at the beginning. IOW, the entropy the universe as a whole is increasing, moving from more order to less order. Do you three care to explain order, if it is as you say, there is no ordering someNOTHING? Don't just say it, do it. Enact your own hypothetical and see what happens for you.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2019 16:17:11 GMT -5
I will give an example. Say I have 20 CD's. I play one. When I play the next one I put the last in the case just emptied, not it's own case. I do this for a month. So no CD is in it's own case, or if it happens to be this us by chance. Now, if it us true that there us no original ordering principle in the universe, and this is what E, Laughter and sharon maintain, then how does the order we see come about? Go back to my CD's. The CD's will never each return to their own case, unless sdp exerts the necessary energy and knowledge to do so. IOW, it will not happen by itself. Now, physicists cannot say how, but they know that the universe was in it's most ordered state, at the beginning. IOW, the entropy the universe as a whole is increasing, moving from more order to less order. Do you three care to explain order, if it is as you say, there is no ordering someNOTHING? Don't just say it, do it. Enact your own hypothetical and see what happens for you. This is how I play CD's. It's not hypothetical.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2019 16:25:23 GMT -5
The only way I could ever walk in there was after having gone through a process of questioning everything I believe. Belief and faith are antonyms, and peace, is an absence. What the faithful pray to is entirely beyond any philosophy. What they think they believe is really of no consequence, it just seems otherwise to some of them, to one degree or another, from individual to individual. But does your wife know this is your view? Not only that, she's very curious about nonduality. What we call "dharma talks". If someone believes that what people who are in prayer believe about the world is important .. well, that's their business, I won't hold it against them. Just as what's happening in my brain, is mine.
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Post by laughter on Dec 7, 2019 16:26:42 GMT -5
Why do you go to church on Sundays? Oh, didn't you know, Laffy is court ordered to attend church and AA meetings as a condition of his work release. (** muttley snicker **)Go coach 'O!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 7, 2019 16:30:48 GMT -5
But does your wife know this is your view? Not only that, she's very curious about nonduality. What we call "dharma talks". If someone believes that what people who are in prayer believe about the world is important .. well, that's their business, I won't hold it against them. Just as what's happening in my brain, is mine. OK. Good. (I was in a similar situation. Married 15 years. Divorced over 20 years).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 16:59:27 GMT -5
Don't just say it, do it. Enact your own hypothetical and see what happens for you. This is how I play CD's. It's not hypothetical. Great. And does there come a day when it is enjoyable and nonsensical to do anything other, than to put the right CD's back in the right CD cases?
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2019 19:02:26 GMT -5
Yes, language creates meaning, not subjects an objects. That's absurd. Language does not create meaning. People create meaning. There is no meaning without people. The Rosetta Stone. The same message was written in three different languages. That was assumed and proved to be correct. Hieroglyphics to that point were not understandable. But they constituted a full language. It took a human being to decipher the 1/3 hieroglyphics with the other two(thirds) known languages. Language does not create meaning. A very good film out, The Professor and the Madman. About the creation of The Oxford Dictionary. Of course people create meaning...using language.
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