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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 19, 2020 11:37:15 GMT -5
I don't get this lightning-strike-out-of-the-blue business. Not everyone does, it seems. That makes conversation about it on a discussion forum difficult. Even futile.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 19, 2020 14:42:44 GMT -5
I don't get this lightning-strike-out-of-the-blue business. Not everyone does, it seems. That makes conversation about it on a discussion forum difficult. Even futile. Sudden realizations are well known in scientific circles as "eureka moments," but those kinds of insights usually involve an answer to a question that's conceptual. The double helix insight, the benzene ring insight, etc. were ones in which images suddenly appeared in a scientist's mind that resolved conceptual puzzles about molecular structure. The same sort of thing can happen when one is contemplating an existential question, but in those cases one suddenly sees that some idea underlying the question was erroneous (misconceived), so one sees what is NOT so. A CC event, for example, reveals that the nature of reality is NOT what one imagined it was. There are also other kinds of sudden existential realizations. For example, one might suddenly see that some idea to which one was attached keeps him/her separated from the truth of "what is." Seeing how the idea obscures "what is" makes it obvious that that particular idea should not be believed or engaged with in the future. In many cases these kinds of insights can be life changing. The resolution of most koans also involve sudden realizations in order to "see" the answers. No amount of reflective thinking will resolve a koan, but by contemplating the issue/question, an answer will often spontaneously appear.
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2020 16:16:23 GMT -5
When did you realize that? I was just quoting other people, thus I deferred to zd and E. Any realizations I have had were a result of experience, experience and knowledge, or experience beyond knowledge (which then became knowledge). Probably, most likely (can't think of otherwise) any realizations I have had were the connecting of dots, putting another dot between dots. I don't get this lightning-strike-out-of-the-blue business. Realization is certainly not about connecting dots, or making a dot layer cake. ..
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 19, 2020 18:28:42 GMT -5
Sudden realizations are well known in scientific circles as "eureka moments," but those kinds of insights usually involve an answer to a question that's conceptual. The double helix insight, the benzene ring insight, etc. were ones in which images suddenly appeared in a scientist's mind that resolved conceptual puzzles about molecular structure. The same sort of thing can happen when one is contemplating an existential question, but in those cases one suddenly sees that some idea underlying the question was erroneous (misconceived), so one sees what is NOT so. A CC event, for example, reveals that the nature of reality is NOT what one imagined it was. There are also other kinds of sudden existential realizations. For example, one might suddenly see that some idea to which one was attached keeps him/her separated from the truth of "what is." Seeing how the idea obscures "what is" makes it obvious that that particular idea should not be believed or engaged with in the future. In many cases these kinds of insights can be life changing. The resolution of most koans also involve sudden realizations in order to "see" the answers. No amount of reflective thinking will resolve a koan, but by contemplating the issue/question, an answer will often spontaneously appear. Yes, there seems to be all manner of "realizations" as you rightly show. And they can indeed come suddenly and out-of-the-blue. But how many of these realizations are truly meaningful if one does not yet know, directly, intimately and unmistakably through what I consider a primary realization, if not the primary realization, revealing who we have always been, presently are and always will be? That particular realization, based on my own experience and readings of other's experience, seems to have an integral element of unmistakable Grace attached to it putting it neatly out of reach of the egoic mind.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 19, 2020 19:16:20 GMT -5
Sudden realizations are well known in scientific circles as "eureka moments," but those kinds of insights usually involve an answer to a question that's conceptual. The double helix insight, the benzene ring insight, etc. were ones in which images suddenly appeared in a scientist's mind that resolved conceptual puzzles about molecular structure. The same sort of thing can happen when one is contemplating an existential question, but in those cases one suddenly sees that some idea underlying the question was erroneous (misconceived), so one sees what is NOT so. A CC event, for example, reveals that the nature of reality is NOT what one imagined it was. There are also other kinds of sudden existential realizations. For example, one might suddenly see that some idea to which one was attached keeps him/her separated from the truth of "what is." Seeing how the idea obscures "what is" makes it obvious that that particular idea should not be believed or engaged with in the future. In many cases these kinds of insights can be life changing. The resolution of most koans also involve sudden realizations in order to "see" the answers. No amount of reflective thinking will resolve a koan, but by contemplating the issue/question, an answer will often spontaneously appear. Yes, there seems to be all manner of "realizations" as you rightly show. And they can indeed come suddenly and out-of-the-blue. But how many of these realizations are truly meaningful if one does not yet know, directly, intimately and unmistakably through what I consider a primary realization, if not the primary realization, revealing who we have always been, presently are and always will be? That particular realization, based on my own experience and readings of other's experience, seems to have an integral element of unmistakable Grace attached to it putting it neatly out of reach of the egoic mind. Totally agree.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 5:12:14 GMT -5
Probably not, and it's why one man's practice is another man's integration. My dad took me to a TM seminar in 1972, and my secret word was "Om" , but I quickly lost interest in the practice.. Also around that time I had a few 'out of body' experiences. There was no body, only awareness. But I had curiosity, and I was looking for something.. but there wasn't anything, anywhere. And a few years later, while under the influence of lsd, I understood Oneness, if only briefly. And then a few years ago I had a realization which quieted my mind.
I guess its an integration, but who cares, I have dog poop to clean up! May I ask what was accepted as true in the 'realisation that quieted your mind'?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 9:17:18 GMT -5
May I ask what was accepted as true in the 'realisation that quieted your mind'? nothing edit to add: what does that even mean? what are you asking? I'll take your first answer. The edit is the second guesser, I only answer that when it appears in children.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 25, 2020 9:28:38 GMT -5
Sudden realizations are well known in scientific circles as "eureka moments," but those kinds of insights usually involve an answer to a question that's conceptual. The double helix insight, the benzene ring insight, etc. were ones in which images suddenly appeared in a scientist's mind that resolved conceptual puzzles about molecular structure. The same sort of thing can happen when one is contemplating an existential question, but in those cases one suddenly sees that some idea underlying the question was erroneous (misconceived), so one sees what is NOT so. A CC event, for example, reveals that the nature of reality is NOT what one imagined it was. There are also other kinds of sudden existential realizations. For example, one might suddenly see that some idea to which one was attached keeps him/her separated from the truth of "what is." Seeing how the idea obscures "what is" makes it obvious that that particular idea should not be believed or engaged with in the future. In many cases these kinds of insights can be life changing. The resolution of most koans also involve sudden realizations in order to "see" the answers. No amount of reflective thinking will resolve a koan, but by contemplating the issue/question, an answer will often spontaneously appear. Yes, there seems to be all manner of "realizations" as you rightly show. And they can indeed come suddenly and out-of-the-blue. But how many of these realizations are truly meaningful if one does not yet know, directly, intimately and unmistakably through what I consider a primary realization, if not the primary realization, revealing who we have always been, presently are and always will be? That particular realization, based on my own experience and readings of other's experience, seems to have an integral element of unmistakable Grace attached to it putting it neatly out of reach of the egoic mind. In re-reading this post it seems worthwhile to point out that many realizations can have life changing effects even if the most fundamental realization has not yet occurred. In general, realizations get people "out of their heads" and into their bodies (through the process of detaching from erroneous or counter-productive thoughts), and that movement generally results in a more action-oriented way of life than a reflective way of life. Long before SR occurs it's possible to stop second-guessing oneself, to accept reality as it is, and to become relatively free of thinking negative thoughts about oneself or others. It can lead to a primary focus upon whatever is happening in the present moment, freedom from a comparing mind, and freedom from judgmentalness. These changes, alone, can make life a lot more dynamic and non-self referential. Simply eliminating the ideas of "shoulds" and "oughts" would improve many peoples' outlooks, and best of all, silence begets more silence in the same way that thinking begets more thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 9:32:39 GMT -5
I'll take your first answer. The edit is the second guesser, I only answer that when it appears in children. we think differently Thankfully.
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2020 15:17:19 GMT -5
Yes, there seems to be all manner of "realizations" as you rightly show. And they can indeed come suddenly and out-of-the-blue. But how many of these realizations are truly meaningful if one does not yet know, directly, intimately and unmistakably through what I consider a primary realization, if not the primary realization, revealing who we have always been, presently are and always will be? That particular realization, based on my own experience and readings of other's experience, seems to have an integral element of unmistakable Grace attached to it putting it neatly out of reach of the egoic mind. In re-reading this post it seems worthwhile to point out that many realizations can have life changing effects even if the most fundamental realization has not yet occurred. In general, realizations get people "out of their heads" and into their bodies (through the process of detaching from erroneous or counter-productive thoughts), and that movement generally results in a more action-oriented way of life than a reflective way of life. Long before SR occurs it's possible to stop second-guessing oneself, to accept reality as it is, and to become relatively free of thinking negative thoughts about oneself or others. It can lead to a primary focus upon whatever is happening in the present moment, freedom from a comparing mind, and freedom from judgmentalness. These changes, alone, can make life a lot more dynamic and non-self referential. Simply eliminating the ideas of "shoulds" and "oughts" would improve many peoples' outlooks, and best of all, silence begets more silence in the same way that thinking begets more thinking. A spark of curiosity in the engineer-mind happens as to the mechanics of the feedback involved. Not that there's anything wrong with such curiosity. But the silent mind knows it's completely unnecessary.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 25, 2020 17:30:14 GMT -5
In re-reading this post it seems worthwhile to point out that many realizations can have life changing effects even if the most fundamental realization has not yet occurred. In general, realizations get people "out of their heads" and into their bodies (through the process of detaching from erroneous or counter-productive thoughts), and that movement generally results in a more action-oriented way of life than a reflective way of life. Long before SR occurs it's possible to stop second-guessing oneself, to accept reality as it is, and to become relatively free of thinking negative thoughts about oneself or others. It can lead to a primary focus upon whatever is happening in the present moment, freedom from a comparing mind, and freedom from judgmentalness. These changes, alone, can make life a lot more dynamic and non-self referential. Simply eliminating the ideas of "shoulds" and "oughts" would improve many peoples' outlooks, and best of all, silence begets more silence in the same way that thinking begets more thinking. A spark of curiosity in the engineer-mind happens as to the mechanics of the feedback involved. Not that there's anything wrong with such curiosity. But the silent mind knows it's completely unnecessary. Yes, my point was along the line of what Richard Rose called "laddering." His idea, which I think is quite valid, is that people have different levels of understanding based upon what's been realized, and people higher up a ladder can help others whose understanding isn't quite as deep move up the ladder. Another idea of his was that spiritual friendship is quite valuable, and that people with more understanding, experience, and realization will impersonally want to help others climb up the ladder because that's the nature of what THIS naturally does. It's the same kind of idea that everyone in the field of education recognizes. A college math student can help a high school math student simply because the college student knows so much more than a high school student. The college student may not have a PhD in math, but as she may know "higher" forms of math simply because of her experience and have good ideas about how to transmit certain teachings to someone with less knowledge and/or experience. In the existential realm of non-duality people who may not have attained SR yet had many other realizations can still offer good advice to other people who haven't had the same realizations. IOW, to use an extreme example, a human doesn't have to wait and become a Buddha before speaking about the pathless path to people who are as yet totally unfamiliar with it.
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 25, 2020 17:32:51 GMT -5
Yes, there seems to be all manner of "realizations" as you rightly show. And they can indeed come suddenly and out-of-the-blue. But how many of these realizations are truly meaningful if one does not yet know, directly, intimately and unmistakably through what I consider a primary realization, if not the primary realization, revealing who we have always been, presently are and always will be? That particular realization, based on my own experience and readings of other's experience, seems to have an integral element of unmistakable Grace attached to it putting it neatly out of reach of the egoic mind. In re-reading this post it seems worthwhile to point out that many realizations can have life changing effects even if the most fundamental realization has not yet occurred. In general, realizations get people "out of their heads" and into their bodies (through the process of detaching from erroneous or counter-productive thoughts), and that movement generally results in a more action-oriented way of life than a reflective way of life. Long before SR occurs it's possible to stop second-guessing oneself, to accept reality as it is, and to become relatively free of thinking negative thoughts about oneself or others. It can lead to a primary focus upon whatever is happening in the present moment, freedom from a comparing mind, and freedom from judgmentalness. These changes, alone, can make life a lot more dynamic and non-self referential. Simply eliminating the ideas of "shoulds" and "oughts" would improve many peoples' outlooks, and best of all, silence begets more silence in the same way that thinking begets more thinking. This is from a very interesting interview with E. Tolle here: Ripples on the Surface of Being "Yes, first things first. What comes first is realization and liberation, and then let action flow out of that—and that will be pure, untainted, and there’s no karma attached to it whatsoever. Otherwise, no matter how high our ideals are, we will still strengthen the ego through our good actions. Unfortunately, you cannot fulfill the commandments unless you are egoless—and there are very few who are—as all the people who have tried to practice the teachings of Christ have found out. “Love your neighbor as yourself” is one of the main teachings of Jesus, and you cannot fulfill that commandment, no matter how hard you try, if you don’t know who you are at the deepest level. Love your neighbor as yourself means your neighbor is yourself, and that recognition of oneness is love."
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2020 18:16:43 GMT -5
A spark of curiosity in the engineer-mind happens as to the mechanics of the feedback involved. Not that there's anything wrong with such curiosity. But the silent mind knows it's completely unnecessary. Yes, my point was along the line of what Richard Rose called "laddering." His idea, which I think is quite valid, is that people have different levels of understanding based upon what's been realized, and people higher up a ladder can help others whose understanding isn't quite as deep move up the ladder. Another idea of his was that spiritual friendship is quite valuable, and that people with more understanding, experience, and realization will impersonally want to help others climb up the ladder because that's the nature of what THIS naturally does. It's the same kind of idea that everyone in the field of education recognizes. A college math student can help a high school math student simply because the college student knows so much more than a high school student. The college student may not have a PhD in math, but as she may know "higher" forms of math simply because of her experience and have good ideas about how to transmit certain teachings to someone with less knowledge and/or experience. In the existential realm of non-duality people who may not have attained SR yet had many other realizations can still offer good advice to other people who haven't had the same realizations. IOW, to use an extreme example, a human doesn't have to wait and become a Buddha before speaking about the pathless path to people who are as yet totally unfamiliar with it. I understand. They say "when the student is ready, the teacher appears". And I guess that can happen even for a "student" who has already realized that either "student" or "teacher" is really only ever THIS .. in "disguise".
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Post by krsnaraja on Feb 25, 2020 20:14:44 GMT -5
It says in the Vedic sastra that the material modes of nature are namely, passion, goodness and ignorance. There are times I dreamt I was fishing and caught all sorts of fish. My father's love for fishing was an obsession. He took me to ponds to fish for milk fish, bottom fish "kilo kilo". We use shreds of roasted pig as baits, it worked. So, I can tell the nature of that dream I was fishing with my Dad was under the mode of goodness.
There are also times I experience in a dream I was with a girl/s whom I knew were my classmates in high school /college. I didn't experience any romantic ties with them in life during those days but these dreams I had with them end in bed. I should say that these wet dreams were under the mode of passion.
There are also dreams I experience lately when I got lost in the city or town. The places looked familiar though it seemed they were not. When I try to search for my home, the delimma is I couldn't locate it. I categorize these dreams where I felt I were in strange places as being under the mode of ignorance they symbolize.
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Post by justlikeyou on Feb 26, 2020 20:49:54 GMT -5
Yes, there seems to be all manner of "realizations" as you rightly show. And they can indeed come suddenly and out-of-the-blue. But how many of these realizations are truly meaningful if one does not yet know, directly, intimately and unmistakably through what I consider a primary realization, if not the primary realization, revealing who we have always been, presently are and always will be? That particular realization, based on my own experience and readings of other's experience, seems to have an integral element of unmistakable Grace attached to it putting it neatly out of reach of the egoic mind. In re-reading this post it seems worthwhile to point out that many realizations can have life changing effects even if the most fundamental realization has not yet occurred. In general, realizations get people "out of their heads" and into their bodies (through the process of detaching from erroneous or counter-productive thoughts), and that movement generally results in a more action-oriented way of life than a reflective way of life. Long before SR occurs it's possible to stop second-guessing oneself, to accept reality as it is, and to become relatively free of thinking negative thoughts about oneself or others. It can lead to a primary focus upon whatever is happening in the present moment, freedom from a comparing mind, and freedom from judgmentalness. These changes, alone, can make life a lot more dynamic and non-self referential. Simply eliminating the ideas of "shoulds" and "oughts" would improve many peoples' outlooks, and best of all, silence begets more silence in the same way that thinking begets more thinking. An excellent clarification, ZD. Thank you for that.
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