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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 22:53:51 GMT -5
If you are a follower of Jesus, then obviously you have to be christian. Jesus briefly said what Paul detailed it. Salvation comes through Jesus Crucifixion that Jesus certainly believed. More than that he completely believed that God ordained that to happen for human salvation. Even if you take just the words of Jesus in the NT, they are at odds with modern day Christianity (the western church, more specifically Protestantism). The western church doesn't really teach transformation, which is what Jesus was all about. And I think Jesus taught a form of spiritual practice which he called watching. Now I think this got corrupted in the years following, and by the time the Gospels were written this turned into watching for the second coming. Do I have any basis for this? Yes. If you look at the Philokalia, some of which reaches back to the 4th century (volume 1 of 5, the 5th not yet published in English except some excerpts in Early Fathers from the Philokalia, rare to find), you find this kind of meditation explicitly discussed. So I surmise a link between Jesus and these writings, his teaching passed down in an oral tradition teacher to disciple for a couple hundred years. If you look at certain parables of Jesus he specifically taught against mere belief (the five wise virgins and the five foolish virgins, the wedding guest who didn't have a wedding garment, the man given one talent who buried it). The western Protestant is all about belief/faith (but yes, faith is more than mere belief). I would advise any Christian who wants to know more about Christianity just to read the red, the words of Jesus. Paul created a perfect "myth". (Explaining that Jewish Passover {the history and what followed} was all about the Messiah, Jesus/Yeshua). I can't believe that how things turned out (Paul coming along to explain what Jesus was all about) was God's perfect plan. Something seems amiss to me... Yes, there are 1000000000 of opinions like yours are available. Paul has such an opinion those who follows his opinions are called Christians.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 7:15:13 GMT -5
What Jesus said and did not say is open for debate. If you study the process of how the new testament was put together you'll understand why this is a contentious issue. I can recommend a few books if you are interested. Paul's view of Jesus, btw he never met Jesus in the flesh, was clearly at odds with many of Jesus followers, including James, Jesus' brother. I am well aware of that. Perhaps you may add if I have missed out something.
Jesus was crucified around 30 AD, at 48 AD Paul started writing his epistles and he completed all of his work 52 AD. 7 of the books are authenticated out of 11. And then around 70 AD Mark was written immediately after the destruction of Jewish temple. Around 80 AD Matthew and Luke was written and then around 90 - 120 AD John was written. Unfortunately Matthew,Mark,Luke books were anonymous writings, names were given around 110 AD. So the very first books which were written are Paul's writing. Paul is the first one who brings the meaning to the event of Jesus Crucifixion. He brought the theory as to how Jesus crucifixion is related to Jewish animal sacrification and how this human sacrificiation(Father yield his son on the cross as a random) brings the salvation to all the people.
A great book to read is Erhman's "Misquoting Jesus".
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Post by zendancer on Jul 19, 2019 8:55:12 GMT -5
I am well aware of that. Perhaps you may add if I have missed out something. Jesus was crucified around 30 AD, at 48 AD Paul started writing his epistles and he completed all of his work 52 AD. 7 of the books are authenticated out of 11. And then around 70 AD Mark was written immediately after the destruction of Jewish temple. Around 80 AD Matthew and Luke was written and then around 90 - 120 AD John was written. Unfortunately Matthew,Mark,Luke books were anonymous writings, names were given around 110 AD. So the very first books which were written are Paul's writing. Paul is the first one who brings the meaning to the event of Jesus Crucifixion. He brought the theory as to how Jesus crucifixion is related to Jewish animal sacrification and how this human sacrificiation(Father yield his son on the cross as a random) brings the salvation to all the people.
There's much more to the story than this chronology. There's also evidence that the Christian scribes were lay people, rather clumsy and prone to errors, evience of text being modified after the fact. There's evidence that James, Jesus' brother, and the subsequent leader of his movement was unhappy with Paul's teachings, that they met and Paul was reprimanded.A great book to read is Erhman's "Misquoting Jesus". There's also the issue of the early church fathers suppressing many writings (such as the Gospel of Thomas) that were more mystical or deviated from doctrinal beliefs. The Nag Hammadi library discovered in 1947 shed light on the kinds of writings that were considered subversive, and illustrated that Gnosticism (which advocated for direct experience rather than belief, faith, or submission to early church authorities) was an alternative approach to what we now consider the canonical version of events. It's always possible that a new cache of such writings may be found in the future that would add more clarity to the picture--especially if they could be dated accurately to a time period close to Jesus' death. We know from early church writings that people who kept copies of alternative interpretations of Jesus life and teachings were subject to execution as heretics, so it's not surprising that such documents, if they exist, were hidden at the time that they were in circulation. The battle over which teachings would become canonized by the early church is a fascinating story about competition for control of the story.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 9:44:17 GMT -5
There's much more to the story than this chronology. There's also evidence that the Christian scribes were lay people, rather clumsy and prone to errors, evience of text being modified after the fact. There's evidence that James, Jesus' brother, and the subsequent leader of his movement was unhappy with Paul's teachings, that they met and Paul was reprimanded.A great book to read is Erhman's "Misquoting Jesus". There's also the issue of the early church fathers suppressing many writings (such as the Gospel of Thomas) that were more mystical or deviated from doctrinal beliefs. The Nag Hammadi library discovered in 1947 shed light on the kinds of writings that were considered subversive, and illustrated that Gnosticism (which advocated for direct experience rather than belief, faith, or submission to early church authorities) was an alternative approach to what we now consider the canonical version of events. It's always possible that a new cache of such writings may be found in the future that would add more clarity to the picture--especially if they could be dated accurately to a time period close to Jesus' death. We know from early church writings that people who kept copies of alternative interpretations of Jesus life and teachings were subject to execution as heretics, so it's not surprising that such documents, if they exist, were hidden at the time that they were in circulation. The battle over which teachings would become canonized by the early church is a fascinating story about competition for control of the story. Also an interesting component of the story, typically engendered by animosity brought on by gnostics' willingness to comply with Roman edicts demanding the renunciation of Jesus as a God. Doctrinal Christians refused this and were persecuted as gnostics were treated less severely. When Christianity came to prominence in the Roman Empire, there was hell to pay for the gnostics.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 21:35:48 GMT -5
I am well aware of that. Perhaps you may add if I have missed out something.
Jesus was crucified around 30 AD, at 48 AD Paul started writing his epistles and he completed all of his work 52 AD. 7 of the books are authenticated out of 11. And then around 70 AD Mark was written immediately after the destruction of Jewish temple. Around 80 AD Matthew and Luke was written and then around 90 - 120 AD John was written. Unfortunately Matthew,Mark,Luke books were anonymous writings, names were given around 110 AD. So the very first books which were written are Paul's writing. Paul is the first one who brings the meaning to the event of Jesus Crucifixion. He brought the theory as to how Jesus crucifixion is related to Jewish animal sacrification and how this human sacrificiation(Father yield his son on the cross as a random) brings the salvation to all the people.
A great book to read is Erhman's "Misquoting Jesus". I know Bart Erhman. He has written what I said above.
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