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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2019 9:32:44 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 29, 2019 10:31:43 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. This issue can be looked at in two different ways. As a scientist by training, I'm inclined to be skeptical of truth claims, and I often tell people to have faith in themselves and to trust their own intuition. Faith is definitely not necessary, but it may help keep some people motivated. The scientific method is based upon the idea of testing truth claims for oneself by following admonitions and re-performing experiments. If someone has never seen the planet Saturn, and wants to test the truth claim that there's a planet with rings around it, one must acquire a telescope, learn how to use it, point it at Saturn, and then decide for themselves whether s/he agrees or disagrees with the truth claim. On ND websites many truth claims are made. If someone is skeptical, then s/he must do the same thing any scientist must do who wants to acquire a basis for agreeing or disagreeing with a truth claim; she must, in essence, perform an experiment by following the admonitions, acquiring the necessary experiences and realizations, and then decide whether the truth claims are true or false. However, there is an obvious difference between conventional scientific truth claims and ND truth claims. The experiment that's required for testing the validity of ND truth claims involves an experiment that does not require test equipment or anything beyond one's own consciousness and the way that it's used. What are the basic truth claims? Here are the most common ones: 1. Be still.....(Psalms 46:10) 2. Live in the Now and put attention upon Presence. (Tolle) 3. Stay in the I AM. (Niz) 4. Meditate upon the breath, or do shikan taza, etc. (many Zen Masters) 5. Do ATA-T. Keep shifting attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc. without naming anything and without reflecting. (yours truly ) 6. Do Self-inquiry. (Ramana) All of these admonitions, in essence, require one to shift attention away from the intellect to attentiveness and direct perception which results in internal silence. I would argue that faith is not required if one persistently follows any of these admonitions. However, it helps to meet people who have followed the admonitions and discovered what they point to because it gives one confidence that losing the conventional sense of selfhood and attaining psychological freedom and "the natural state" is possible.
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Post by laughter on Jun 29, 2019 11:24:09 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. Belief and faith are actually antonyms that have been conflated over the centuries. If you're pursuing insight, belief is any and all product of the thinking/emoting mind. Some beliefs can obscure the existential truth, most have nothing to do with it, and realization of that truth doesn't necessarily instantly change beliefs, because the funny thing about them is that until your mind takes them up, there's no testing them. Faith that realization is possible might seem like a belief, and, it might even degrade into one -- only the seeker can tell if that's happened for him or her self for sure. While it's outside of my experience, meeting someone in person who's SR and you can trust can probably help with that.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 29, 2019 12:46:24 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. Faith is important. For instance, Nisargadatta Maharaj had blind faith in what his guru told him, but then again so do fundamentalists.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2019 13:23:25 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. Do you really want to be All men, or would you rather just be one man living his life?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 29, 2019 13:44:18 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. Faith is important. For instance, Nisargadatta Maharaj had blind faith in what his guru told him, but then again so do fundamentalists. Yes, in this case the word "faith" is a synonym for "trust." Niz trusted his teacher, and therefore did what his teacher told him to do. As he said, "I was a simple man, and I trusted my guru totally." In contrast to Niz, some people never meet anyone that they can totally trust, so they have to find the truth without clear directions that they can trust. The Buddha had no guru, and there are hundreds of other people who have found the truth without a guru. Tolle, for example, was freed by one weird thought that stopped his mind. Same same with Ramana. My point was that faith or trust can be beneficial but it isn't absolutely necessary.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 29, 2019 13:57:45 GMT -5
My point was that faith or trust can be beneficial but it isn't absolutely necessary. You have a head start. "In God We Trust" is the official motto of the United States of America. But yes I agree, it isn't always necessary, more so on the bhakti path than the jnana path.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2019 21:29:04 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. Faith is important. For instance, Nisargadatta Maharaj had blind faith in what his guru told him, but then again so do fundamentalists. Was thinking of that very thing about Niz and his guru as I wrote this, but you've added a twist that reveals both edges of faith.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2019 21:36:44 GMT -5
A whole lot is said on this forum about droppong beliefs, which in itself can bring a deluge of disagreement. But how about faith, the other "f", word. I'm not talking about faith in God or some other anthropomorphic deity, but faith in a practice or a path, faith in something like Self-Enquiry or Self-Abidance, that it will take you the Kingdom, Nirvana, Self-realization. Or is that just another belief that needs to be dropped? I've heard several folk say it's an essential component of a path, believing in it. Do you really want to be All men, or would you rather just be one man living his life? There is no druthers. I have faith in "I Am the Walrus" and the Beatles. "I am he as you are he as you are me/And we are all together." So not only are you reefs but everyone.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 29, 2019 21:37:09 GMT -5
Faith is important. For instance, Nisargadatta Maharaj had blind faith in what his guru told him, but then again so do fundamentalists. Was thinking of that very thing about Niz and his guru as I wrote this, but you've added a twist that reveals both edges of faith. Blind faith is only legitimate if the teaching which arises from it can be self verified. So it worked for Nisargadatta. He followed his Guru and within three years he was Self realized. If he hadn't discovered the truth of it himself he would have abandoned the teaching. So we can make a distinction between that kind of direct knowledge and fundamentalist religious dogma which demands blind faith but doesn't reveal anything about ones own nature.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 4:28:46 GMT -5
My point was that faith or trust can be beneficial but it isn't absolutely necessary. You have a head start. "In God We Trust" is the official motto of the United States of America. But yes I agree, it isn't always necessary, more so on the bhakti path than the jnana path. I'm not sure that it's an official motto, anymore than 'Britannia rules the waves is'. Though here's an interesting take on why the phrase is on their money.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 30, 2019 4:31:35 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 6:28:01 GMT -5
The video doesn't say anything different. Except for the slant against communism, which would go some way to explain why E pluribus unum was let go of.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 8:13:03 GMT -5
Was thinking of that very thing about Niz and his guru as I wrote this, but you've added a twist that reveals both edges of faith. Blind faith is only legitimate if the teaching which arises from it can be self verified. So it worked for Nisargadatta. He followed his Guru and within three years he was Self realized. If he hadn't discovered the truth of it himself he would have abandoned the teaching. So we can make a distinction between that kind of direct knowledge and fundamentalist religious dogma which demands blind faith but doesn't reveal anything about ones own nature. A useful distinnction but ultimately as you've said everything is God.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2019 9:05:51 GMT -5
Blind faith is only legitimate if the teaching which arises from it can be self verified. So it worked for Nisargadatta. He followed his Guru and within three years he was Self realized. If he hadn't discovered the truth of it himself he would have abandoned the teaching. So we can make a distinction between that kind of direct knowledge and fundamentalist religious dogma which demands blind faith but doesn't reveal anything about ones own nature. A useful distinction but ultimately as you've said everything is God.
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