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Post by andrew on Jul 2, 2019 4:37:36 GMT -5
I can appreciate your intention, but I would say guilt (and remorse) can be a useful and healthy aspect of healing. In my view it's not really that 'it works or doesn't work', it's more that it is part of who we are as humans, so working with it intelligently is a good thing. Explain to me how the melting of glaciers is about healing please. I'm not quite seeing the connection. If it's caused (relatively speaking) by human greed and ego, then it's a betrayal of who we are in essence, and a betrayal of nature. When we betray, we feel guilt, and then remorse (if we can follow the process through).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 4:50:15 GMT -5
Explain to me how the melting of glaciers is about healing please. I'm not quite seeing the connection. If it's caused (relatively speaking) by human greed and ego, then it's a betrayal of who we are in essence, and a betrayal of nature. When we betray, we feel guilt, and then remorse (if we can follow the process through). And if it's all just an inevitable and irreversible Gaian reboot. Then where does your guilt trip get everyone?
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Post by andrew on Jul 2, 2019 4:55:25 GMT -5
If it's caused (relatively speaking) by human greed and ego, then it's a betrayal of who we are in essence, and a betrayal of nature. When we betray, we feel guilt, and then remorse (if we can follow the process through). And if it's all just an inevitable and irreversible Gaian reboot. Then where does your guilt trip get everyone? Well, the glacier is a semi ambiguous example, because it's not clear if it's human cause or not. Chopping down the rainforests and polluting the oceans with plastics is a much clearer example of human greed and ego. I do believe in an 'Gaian reboot', but we aren't just passengers along for the ride, we are participants in clearing up the nonsense, both internally and externally. I can go into this in great depth, but in a nutshell, what's required is a readjustment of our values (or orientation to our true values).Our current system has been created around (and speaks to) our base fears. Ultimately, our system has to be created around our highest virtues. To be fair to earlier generations, technology probably didn't make that possible, and capitalism served a purpose. Now, we have no excuse, and the concept of 'profit' is the most dangerous concept of them all. There is no 'economy', it's an abstract idea and a problematic illusion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 5:11:20 GMT -5
And if it's all just an inevitable and irreversible Gaian reboot. Then where does your guilt trip get everyone? Well, the glacier is a semi ambiguous example, because it's not clear if it's human cause or not. Chopping down the rainforests and polluting the oceans with plastics is a much clearer example of human greed and ego. I do believe in an 'Gaian reboot', but we aren't just passengers along for the ride, we are participants in clearing up the nonsense, both internally and externally. Plastic is a huge issue I agree. It was it's non-biodegrability in the beginning that was it's selling point. Making people feel guilty for such a learning curve just doesn't make any sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 5:46:03 GMT -5
And if it's all just an inevitable and irreversible Gaian reboot. Then where does your guilt trip get everyone? I can go into this in great depth, but in a nutshell, what's required is a readjustment of our values (or orientation to our true values).Our current system has been created around (and speaks to) our base fears. Ultimately, our system has to be created around our highest virtues. To be fair to earlier generations, technology probably didn't make that possible, and capitalism served a purpose. Now, we have no excuse, and the concept of 'profit' is the most dangerous concept of them all. There is no 'economy', it's an abstract idea and a problematic illusion. Go as deep as you can.
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Post by andrew on Jul 2, 2019 5:51:59 GMT -5
Well, the glacier is a semi ambiguous example, because it's not clear if it's human cause or not. Chopping down the rainforests and polluting the oceans with plastics is a much clearer example of human greed and ego. I do believe in an 'Gaian reboot', but we aren't just passengers along for the ride, we are participants in clearing up the nonsense, both internally and externally. Plastic is a huge issue I agree. It was it's non-biodegrability in the beginning that was it's selling point. Making people feel guilty for such a learning curve just doesn't make any sense. Well, in the edit I said that capitalism served its purpose. But at this point we're in no doubt that we could change if we wanted to, because we have the technology to do so. And we ARE changing but we are encumbered by some very outdated ideas. Another example of this is 'competition'. Competition is something that should be left to the realm of play and sport. When it comes to innovation and implementation of systems, moving forward, we have to co-operate. The concept of 'business' is dying which is great, and in part, we can thank Jeremy Hunt....and his continued repeated use of the word.....for that! We can only do our best given our life context, and I'm not advocating 'blame', and in practice I am very much an imperfect warrior. But when I buy food from the supermarket and it has plastic, it's GOOD that I'm not wholly at ease with that. This is a time when we all should be self-examining, and 'guilt' is part of that process. To be clear, I'm not into the idea of 'saving the planet'. What I abhor is the commodification and unnecessary hurt we cause to sentient beings (and nature in general). I believe in Freedom, and I believe 'business' and 'profit' have no place in our future world. For now, I appreciate the 'moral' businesses out there, of which there are many.
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Post by andrew on Jul 2, 2019 5:52:52 GMT -5
I can go into this in great depth, but in a nutshell, what's required is a readjustment of our values (or orientation to our true values).Our current system has been created around (and speaks to) our base fears. Ultimately, our system has to be created around our highest virtues. To be fair to earlier generations, technology probably didn't make that possible, and capitalism served a purpose. Now, we have no excuse, and the concept of 'profit' is the most dangerous concept of them all. There is no 'economy', it's an abstract idea and a problematic illusion. Go as deep as you can. well, I covered a bit more above, but there's a looooot more that could be said
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Post by andrew on Jul 2, 2019 6:01:12 GMT -5
To bring it back to topic a little, fundamentalist religion is a core stumbling block to progress too. Perhaps 'religion' in general, but I don't think we have to throw the 'God/Creator/Higher Power' concept out altogether (I don't even think we can throw it out). It's far more our beliefs ABOUT 'God' that are a problem than the idea of 'God' itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 6:03:30 GMT -5
well, I covered a bit more above, but there's a looooot more that could be said
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 10:59:04 GMT -5
To bring it back to topic a little, fundamentalist religion is a core stumbling block to progress too. Perhaps 'religion' in general, but I don't think we have to throw the 'God/Creator/Higher Power' concept out altogether (I don't even think we can throw it out). It's far more our beliefs ABOUT 'God' that are a problem than the idea of 'God' itself. Fundamentalism in religion from my view is akin to ideological fanaticism in politics. Ideology has never solved a problem.. The difficulty is not that market capitalism is bad or good. The problems start when it becomes a subject of fanatical worship. The same can be said for socialism. Ideological baggage is the greatest impediment to problem solving in our liberal democracies.
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Post by andrew on Jul 2, 2019 12:24:42 GMT -5
To bring it back to topic a little, fundamentalist religion is a core stumbling block to progress too. Perhaps 'religion' in general, but I don't think we have to throw the 'God/Creator/Higher Power' concept out altogether (I don't even think we can throw it out). It's far more our beliefs ABOUT 'God' that are a problem than the idea of 'God' itself. Fundamentalism in religion from my view is akin to ideological fanaticism in politics. Ideology has never solved a problem.. The difficulty is not that market capitalism is bad or good. The problems start when it becomes a subject of fanatical worship. The same can be said for socialism. Ideological baggage is the greatest impediment to problem solving in our liberal democracies. I see market capitalism as intrinsically devastating (I think we are in the late stages now, after thousands of years). In the beginning there was a person with an apple, and someone approached that person and asked for the apple. Person 1 said 'no'. So person 2 went away and found an orange and asked for a trade. Person 1 thinks and says 'no'. Person 2 goes away and finds 2 oranges and asks for a trade. Person one then says 'yes'. That's capitalism. It's just 'consciously considered trading'. By the way, the simpleness of the example there isn't meant to be patronizing, it's just that I see capitalism as very simple, so a simple example suffices. 'Trading' is never spontaneous, it's measured and rational. The way forward for humans is this - and this only works in a technologically and spiritually evolved society. Person 1 has an apple. Person 2 asks for the apple. Person 1 says 'yes'. End of story. It's a system based on unconditional giving and irrationality. We create and innovate out of joy, love and inspiration. We give freely. No trading. No profit. No accumulating. No need for a state to regulate and monitor. The closest I have seen to this is called 'compassionate anarchy', but what I am suggesting is beyond abstraction and ideology. It's actually just the law of attraction in action, but with no thought of the law of attraction. In the context of today's society, I am more socialist than neoliberal, though I am a confusing one, because I don't actually like state intervention and mandates. In some ways I am libertarian. But free health care and free education is still currently more evolved (in my eyes obviously) than privatized health care and education. I don't believe that either the US or the UK are 'democracies', I would say they are closer to being oligarchies or plutarchies. In fact, 'democracy' even at its best, is an illusion (and dishonest). Ultimately these oligarchies/plutarchies have to be destroyed. I like AOC. But I know conspiracy theorists that don't. It's a VERY confusing time to be a conspiracy theorist.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 2, 2019 13:14:29 GMT -5
Good video. As the oceans heat up and absorb more CO2, they become more acidic, which kills coral reefs, and causes other detrimental effects. Not only does a drop in the ph of seawater kill coral reefs, it reduces the ability of foraminifera and other other animals with calcium carbonate structures to expend more energy to form those structures. Thanks about the video. I can't watch it to be honest. I couldn't watch it when it came out and I couldn't watch it last night. I just uncontrollably sob. I don't have the luxury of being numb to it all. I just wanted to say that although I have never seen any 'official' research it is said that the coral reefs around Cuba are relatively untouched. Ironically, perhaps, although I had kept up with the general news about this issue, it didn't dawn on me until about 2 years ago that the global warming I thought would be noticeable in the future is here and now. Over the last 5 years the storm, wind, and rain events have exceeded anything we've had in the last 25 years and cost our insurance company and ourselves at least $75,000 in repairs. 2 years ago, after about the third flood event and second major straight-line wind event, I suddenly realized that I've been dealing with the effects of global warming for at least the last five years. That's when i began to pay closer attention to the news (from all over the world) and also to start reading lots of books on this subject. We are now changing both our commercial and residential construction materials and techniques to reduce the potential from future damages. In the past we always installed the economical 3-tab shingles, but they blow off at about 70 mph straight line windspeeds. The heavier 1 tab textured shingles cost more, but they have wind resistance up to about 120 mph. We're also strapping down the wall plates with steel bands and connectors like they use in hurricane areas, so that framed walls will be under compression and offer more wind resistance. It goes without saying that we no longer consider buying any property that is low lying or capable of being affected by 1000 year floods. We're also currently designing a home that will be fireproof except for the roofing, and we're planning on installing sprinkler pipes on the ridges of the roof to keep the roof wet in the event of a area fire. Attenborough has been on the front lines of climate change for at least three decades or more, and he understands what's happening because he's been watching it and documenting it. Insect and amphibian populations are disappearing and half of all vertebrate species have disappeared in the last fifty years. The more I read about this issue the more serious it appears to be. The Paris Accord hoped to limit warming to 2 degrees celsius by 2100, but it's now obvious that it will be virtually impossible to do that. We could easily hit 4 degrees by then, or even higher, and the effect of that would be catastrophic.
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Post by laughter on Jul 2, 2019 15:37:28 GMT -5
I just visited Glacier Bay in Alaska a few weeks ago. In 1860 there was no Glacier Bay because the ice extended all the way to the Pacific Ocean, about twenty miles. Today all of the glaciers that contributed to the main glacier that filled that basin are retreating, and only one of them is still an active tidewater glacier that meets the water. Seeing what's happening in person is rather sobering. Now, of course, 1860 was only 44 years after the " year without a summer". I'm definitely no denier, but my perception on the media reporting is directly opposite yours. I never broke the evening news habit, and all the big three networks routinely devote coverage nowadays to wildfires out west, the flooding in the Midwestern river valleys, tornado alley spikes, hurricane season and summer heat waves. Yes, Fox ignores it (relevant because of their outsized share of viewership), but if you compare this coverage to even 15 years ago, or certainly go back 20-25+, the weather was never covered nearly as much on those broadcasts or in the major print publications as it is now. After I saw "Inconvenient Truth" I got interested in the topics of polar ice, and the northwest and northeast passages. What I've kept my eye on over these years tells an interesting counter-point to the climate change predictions -- which are primarily the results of computer simulations. Now, your anecdotal evidence about the flooding and wind damage is new and I find it interesting. I've got an open, skeptical mind to either "side" of the "debate", and of course can't be blind to the scientific consensus .. but once the skeptical criticism is withdrawn, it ain't science no more, and history is riddled with refuted scientific consensus. With Milankovitch cycles, Maunder minimums and volcoano's (oh my!) .. on top of the complexity of the atmosphere, a good long-range prediction is a daunting technical challenge for the software simulators. (yes I understand that those are in geologic time while the man-made CO2 is the blink of an eye). Are you familiar with this point that the marginal efficacy of CO 2 as a greenhouse gas reduces as a function of concentration in the atmosphere? While I'm aware of the apparent impacts of sea-level rise on some of the Pacific Island natives (which is a harrowing story), the local honey around here is still quite tasty and abundant, and I wish you'd tell the Adirondack flies, midges and mosquitoes about this insect apocalypse deal. Anecdotes are, after all anecdotes, and the latest one the denier's are snickering about is this one.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 2, 2019 20:25:16 GMT -5
I just visited Glacier Bay in Alaska a few weeks ago. In 1860 there was no Glacier Bay because the ice extended all the way to the Pacific Ocean, about twenty miles. Today all of the glaciers that contributed to the main glacier that filled that basin are retreating, and only one of them is still an active tidewater glacier that meets the water. Seeing what's happening in person is rather sobering. Now, of course, 1860 was only 44 years after the " year without a summer". I'm definitely no denier, but my perception on the media reporting is directly opposite yours. I never broke the evening news habit, and all the big three networks routinely devote coverage nowadays to wildfires out west, the flooding in the Midwestern river valleys, tornado alley spikes, hurricane season and summer heat waves. Yes, Fox ignores it (relevant because of their outsized share of viewership), but if you compare this coverage to even 15 years ago, or certainly go back 20-25+, the weather was never covered nearly as much on those broadcasts or in the major print publications as it is now. After I saw "Inconvenient Truth" I got interested in the topics of polar ice, and the northwest and northeast passages. What I've kept my eye on over these years tells an interesting counter-point to the climate change predictions -- which are primarily the results of computer simulations. Now, your anecdotal evidence about the flooding and wind damage is new and I find it interesting. I've got an open, skeptical mind to either "side" of the "debate", and of course can't be blind to the scientific consensus .. but once the skeptical criticism is withdrawn, it ain't science no more, and history is riddled with refuted scientific consensus. With Milankovitch cycles, Maunder minimums and volcoano's (oh my!) .. on top of the complexity of the atmosphere, a good long-range prediction is a daunting technical challenge for the software simulators. (yes I understand that those are in geologic time while the man-made CO2 is the blink of an eye). Are you familiar with this point that the marginal efficacy of CO 2 as a greenhouse gas reduces as a function of concentration in the atmosphere? While I'm aware of the apparent impacts of sea-level rise on some of the Pacific Island natives (which is a harrowing story), the local honey around here is still quite tasty and abundant, and I wish you'd tell the Adirondack flies, midges and mosquitoes about this insect apocalypse deal. Anecdotes are, after all anecdotes, and the latest one the denier's are snickering about is this one. I'm familiar with ALL of that, but none of that refutes the CO2 levels calculated via ice corings showing the oscillation of ppm between 150 and 250 for almost 3 million years, and both the rapid increase and rate of increase over the last thirty years to the current level of 426 ppm. Methane is far worse than CO2 in its effects and the levels of methane increase are also increasing. The orbit of the earth, itself, has affected global temps in the past and will continue to affect temps in the future as will volcanic activity, but the reason that scientists have renamed this period of time the "Anthopocene Epoch" is in recognition of the fact that humans are now a geological force that is changing the climate and obliterating other species on a massive scale. As a scientist, I'm aware of the shallowness of anecdotal evidence, but when it's in your face and also corroborated by countless studies, it gets harder to ignore. As an example, I had noticed that I never have to clean bugs off my windshield after making trips on interstate highways as I did in the past. It turns out that there's a reason for that, and the NYT ran an article titled "The Insect Apocalypse" that explains what I was noticing. If you haven't read it, please pull it up and take a gander. It's another sobering issue that parallels the demise of countless amphibians. To get an even better sense of what's happening worldwide I suggest reading "The Sixth Extinction" or "Falter." Yes, I read about the signage that was removed from Glacier National Park, which was good for a quick laugh, but consider the fact that in the last century the number of glaciers in that particular park have fallen by half. When I first hiked mountains in Colorado 50 years ago, there were several glaciers still there. 20 years ago I hiked up to what was left of the Isabelle Glacier in the Indian Peaks Wilderness northwest of Denver, and it was just a smear of blue ice only a few hundred yards long. I've been told that today it has totally disappeared, and I don;t know of one active glacier left in Colorado. It also isn't anecdotal that the ph of the ocean has measurably dropped in the last thirty years, and it takes a lot of CO2 absorption to do that. As I've said before, I'm a co*keyed optimist about almost everything, but this is one issue that I can't feel much optimism about. There are several documentaries besides the one that Sharon posted about what's happening to our fellow species on earth that are heartbreaking, and the rate at which they're now disappearing is mind-boggling. Amazingly, we have the technology to suck carbon out of the air, but it would require an effort on the scale of a Marshall Plan to implement, and there are many powerful industries that would resist any such effort, and who have funded scientists to promote denial in the same way that the cigarette companies for many years funded scientists to deny that cigarettes were a health hazard. Of course, from the standpoint of ND, this is just "what is," and it may explain why we haven't picked up any signals from life on other planets. This, along with the possibility of nuclear annihilation, may be the filter that ends intelligent life when it evolves to the level of industrial development and beyond.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 21:36:06 GMT -5
Fundamentalism in religion from my view is akin to ideological fanaticism in politics. Ideology has never solved a problem.. The difficulty is not that market capitalism is bad or good. The problems start when it becomes a subject of fanatical worship. The same can be said for socialism. Ideological baggage is the greatest impediment to problem solving in our liberal democracies. I see market capitalism as intrinsically devastating (I think we are in the late stages now, after thousands of years). In the beginning there was a person with an apple, and someone approached that person and asked for the apple. Person 1 said 'no'. So person 2 went away and found an orange and asked for a trade. Person 1 thinks and says 'no'. Person 2 goes away and finds 2 oranges and asks for a trade. Person one then says 'yes'. That's capitalism. It's just 'consciously considered trading'. By the way, the simpleness of the example there isn't meant to be patronizing, it's just that I see capitalism as very simple, so a simple example suffices. 'Trading' is never spontaneous, it's measured and rational. The way forward for humans is this - and this only works in a technologically and spiritually evolved society. Person 1 has an apple. Person 2 asks for the apple. Person 1 says 'yes'. End of story. It's a system based on unconditional giving and irrationality. We create and innovate out of joy, love and inspiration. We give freely. No trading. No profit. No accumulating. No need for a state to regulate and monitor. The closest I have seen to this is called 'compassionate anarchy', but what I am suggesting is beyond abstraction and ideology. It's actually just the law of attraction in action, but with no thought of the law of attraction. In the context of today's society, I am more socialist than neoliberal, though I am a confusing one, because I don't actually like state intervention and mandates. In some ways I am libertarian. But free health care and free education is still currently more evolved (in my eyes obviously) than privatized health care and education. I don't believe that either the US or the UK are 'democracies', I would say they are closer to being oligarchies or plutarchies. In fact, 'democracy' even at its best, is an illusion (and dishonest). Ultimately these oligarchies/plutarchies have to be destroyed. I like AOC. But I know conspiracy theorists that don't. It's a VERY confusing time to be a conspiracy theorist. I'm a pragmatist. Just giving my two cents. Laffy is libel to start quoting Uncle Milti pretty soon. We can't have that. Back to religious fundamentalism and faith. I think we should just add another disorder to the DSM. What's a good name?
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