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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:48:57 GMT -5
Can meditation experiences of shifting attention away from thought and abiding in the Self lead to conditioned confusion as to what's going on? Like the conditioning being conditioned to think it isn't conditioning or that it doesn't exist or that it's been destroyed? No it leads to clarity and bliss. Having shifted attention away from mind and dwelled in states of sacred non dual peace myself, it's clear shifting attention away from thinking does not lead to clarity with regard to mind function, although it may plant the seed for the flowering of new understanding. It can keep be a great way to keep mind unconscious, as well as lead to respite from problem thoughts and feelings. If that's being experienced as bliss, then it's only a matter of time before law of attraction brings that bliss to an end. It's not that God doesn't like the unconscious, it's that the unconscious don't like God, which is why they deny and reject experiences that on an ultimate level, She created.
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2019 11:50:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I completely rezz with those first two paragraphs. It's like yer writing my diary for me. Beliefs still happen after SR, but they happen differently. The way I'd describe it is that if you ever bother to look into them then things get real clear, real quick, which is precisely what Ramana was trying to get people to do by facing them with "who is it that has this question?". My recollection and observation of other's is that the exact same process can happen for someone pre-SR, but it will always happen in the context of the sense that someone is tapping you on the shoulder from behind and running away before you can get a glimpse of them. Beliefs in harmony with love and higher unfolding are going to empower you as an individuation. Beliefs constructed to compensate for injuries are going to hold you back in the pursuit of desire, even if only eventually. While I may refer to unconscious humans as stunted at times, let's be honest, there are some highly intelligent and highly evil unconscious people on this planet, who know how to remove themselves from karmic liability, while order followers take the fall. Believing that separation isn't real can be one incredible patch to keep the puppets on strings. Even if within a context, it just so happens to be true. Reminds me of a D1cken's title .. "bleak house" ..
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2019 11:53:01 GMT -5
And there's a third movement going on: folks that genuinely believe that they're right about how the world needs to change for what they're convinced is the greatest good. The way I interpreted what lopez referred to is as the simple recognition of the first noble truth. Right, which is why understanding the compensatory identity can prevent a war. Yes, and I'd go so far to assert that even people-peeps can come to a measure of understanding in this regard. It's just a matter of listening to what the other people are actually saying, with genuine empathy, even when they're completely wrapped-up in an obvious emotional maelstrom that occludes any possibility of objectivity.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 24, 2019 12:01:15 GMT -5
No it leads to clarity and bliss. Having shifted attention away from mind and dwelled in states of sacred non dual peace myself, it's clear shifting attention away from thinking does not lead to clarity with regard to mind function, although it may plant the seed for the flowering of new understanding. It can keep be a great way to keep mind unconscious, as well as lead to respite from problem thoughts and feelings. If that's being experienced as bliss, then it's only a matter of time before law of attraction brings that bliss to an end. It's not that God doesn't like the unconscious, it's that the unconscious don't like God, which is why they deny and reject experiences that on an ultimate level, She created. Clarity is stillness of mind which creates a space for mind to function more spontaneously and efficiently. I don't believe in law of attraction. Bliss can be a temporary experience but it is nevertheless the essence of being in the natural state.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 24, 2019 12:07:43 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much everything that you're pointing to. Yes, that which doesn't move sees all movement, and all apparent movement is one-with THAT. In this sense life is both highly personal and totally impersonal at the same time. From my POV there's no end to what can be realized, and conditions change all the time, so I have no idea what will happen next, which is perfect. It's almost like watching a movie from the standpoint of an actor in a movie who is playing a role and watching it unfold from inside the role. Ok. You mentioned earlier that you were shifting your attention away from thinking over and over, and then suddenly the illusion of selfhood collapsed. Why were you shifting your attention away from thinking in the first place? I presume you correlated thinking with feeling a certain way and the absence of thinking with the absence of that feeling. When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. [/quote] I began shifting attention away from thoughts as a result of two realizations. The first realization was that when I meditated, I was interacting with the world differently than when I thought about it. This prompted me to increase the time I spent directly perceiving the world through the senses. This manifested as long walks on country roads during which I tried to look at the world without naming anything or thinking about it. The second realization occurred after seeing birds and squirrels for the first time in many years. I suddenly realized that I had spent many years living in my head and not seeing the world around me. I had very strong memories from childhood about times when I spent numerous hours looking in silence at stars or ants crawling through the grass. I concluded that, as an adult, I had lost the ability to look at the world in silence, and decided to find out if it was possible for an adult to look at the world in silence. This eventually became a primary practice coupled with other meditative practices.
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2019 12:27:31 GMT -5
No no. Please don't think that I intended to express anything more than a feeling of aghast that the majority of men believe that their good is the greatest. And are only in doubt of it when the Reaper is standing at their door. I find it a remarkable observation. And if anything was to come under the umbrella of 'conditioning', I would certainly call that mindset, it. I initially took Laughter's comment as a reference to political ideas until he mentioned facing death. I then realized that he was referring to religious/spiritual/existential ideas. I have a friend who is currently facing death from terminal cancer, and he's extremely frightened and resistant because he's an atheist and he abhors the idea that who he thinks he is will soon disappear forever. People who are strongly conditioned to believe in a rewarding afterlife may face death with greater equanimity than my friend if they think they've lived life generally in accordance with the ethical doctrines of their belief system, but even those people sometimes have doubts at the end. Even if there were no other result of apprehending the Infinite than seeing the insignificance of, and illusory nature of, personal death, that, alone, would make the search for truth worthwhile. Politics was definitely the first thing that came to mind when I first responded to her, but 20 broadened the context. It's not much of a leap between the two though. Best wishes and prayers for your friend.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 12:31:42 GMT -5
It's simple. Don't resist. Focus on the process; you can't control outcomes. Buckle in and enjoy the ride. I would say you can control outcomes, to a degree. To the extent you become conscious of emotions linked to degradation, you stop degradation. If you are experiencing negative outcomes in life, I would go into the feelings as deeply as possible. Making the choice to shift attention away from the feelings or throw your hands up in the air and call it God's will is selling yourself short of your creative potential. But yes, I recommend buckling up prior to any of that. Shirking feelings was once a problem, no longer. But this idea that fairy tales do come true is Disney-wacky. All this negative and positive stuff is foreign to me and uninteresting. If someone shows you a carrot, be very suspicious. My life is good. How about yours?
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2019 12:36:39 GMT -5
When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. This seems to me a valid point from memory and observation of other's and culture. But there's a flip side to it. I've done my share of knocking stoicism for the point you make here (not implying that ZD is a stoic, btw), but there's a flip side to it. There's a reason stoicism was so successful as a philosophy that it became woven into the fabric of the culture to the extent where it's not even noticed anymore. And given the current state of popular affairs, it seems to me that there are plenty of people would could benefit from a serious dose of it, and not just for their own personal sake, but definitely that as well. The quiet mind can be fertile ground, as long as there's no repression involved. In the final analysis, I'd say that it's the only fertile ground there ever is.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 24, 2019 12:41:17 GMT -5
You mentioned earlier that you were shifting your attention away from thinking over and over, and then suddenly the illusion of selfhood collapsed. Why were you shifting your attention away from thinking in the first place? I presume you correlated thinking with feeling a certain way and the absence of thinking with the absence of that feeling. When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. I began shifting attention away from thoughts as a result of two realizations. The first realization was that when I meditated, I was interacting with the world differently than when I thought about it. This prompted me to increase the time I spent directly perceiving the world through the senses. This manifested as long walks on country roads during which I tried to look at the world without naming anything or thinking about it. The second realization occurred after seeing birds and squirrels for the first time in many years. I suddenly realized that I had spent many years living in my head and not seeing the world around me. I had very strong memories from childhood about times when I spent numerous hours looking in silence at stars or ants crawling through the grass. I concluded that, as an adult, I had lost the ability to look at the world in silence, and decided to find out if it was possible for an adult to look at the world in silence. This eventually became a primary practice coupled with other meditative practices. [/quote] FWIW, I discovered that after the intellect became relatively silent, there was a much freer flow of emotional feelings, and I've often written about how, when hiking in the mountains for several days (during which time there is very little reflective thought), I spontaneously begin to feel enormous gratitude coupled with deep emotion. In my case, meditation initially was begun because I wanted some peace of mind and a respite from incessant worries that I now know were caused by incessant thinking. Soon thereafter, however, curiosity became the driving force because I suspected that all of my existential questions could be resolved if there was sufficient internal silence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 13:03:34 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much everything that you're pointing to. Yes, that which doesn't move sees all movement, and all apparent movement is one-with THAT. In this sense life is both highly personal and totally impersonal at the same time. From my POV there's no end to what can be realized, and conditions change all the time, so I have no idea what will happen next, which is perfect. It's almost like watching a movie from the standpoint of an actor in a movie who is playing a role and watching it unfold from inside the role. Ok. You mentioned earlier that you were shifting your attention away from thinking over and over, and then suddenly the illusion of selfhood collapsed. Why were you shifting your attention away from thinking in the first place? I presume you correlated thinking with feeling a certain way and the absence of thinking with the absence of that feeling. When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. I wouldn't expect you to be more conscious of why you didn't like thinking many years ago (meaning the negative thinking associate with your thoughts) if you developed a mind state that prevents the thinking from arising. Regardless, if there is a feeling trapped in your auric field, laws of conditioning would bring about events to trigger or embody it. You mentioned a while ago a story about being attacked by bees. Was this before or after you started shifting attention? I would be more concerned with unresolved emotional energy of sages than the words themselves. Whatever you look for in men will no doubt be there for you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 13:06:12 GMT -5
No it leads to clarity and bliss. Having shifted attention away from mind and dwelled in states of sacred non dual peace myself, it's clear shifting attention away from thinking does not lead to clarity with regard to mind function, although it may plant the seed for the flowering of new understanding. It can keep be a great way to keep mind unconscious, as well as lead to respite from problem thoughts and feelings. If that's being experienced as bliss, then it's only a matter of time before law of attraction brings that bliss to an end. It's not that God doesn't like the unconscious, it's that the unconscious don't like God, which is why they deny and reject experiences that on an ultimate level, She created. When you say this do you mean that unconscious people don't like God?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 13:11:30 GMT -5
When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. This seems to me a valid point from memory and observation of other's and culture. But there's a flip side to it. I've done my share of knocking stoicism for the point you make here (not implying that ZD is a stoic, btw), but there's a flip side to it. There's a reason stoicism was so successful as a philosophy that it became woven into the fabric of the culture to the extent where it's not even noticed anymore. And given the current state of popular affairs, it seems to me that there are plenty of people would could benefit from a serious dose of it, and not just for their own personal sake, but definitely that as well. The quiet mind can be fertile ground, as long as there's no repression involved. In the final analysis, I'd say that it's the only fertile ground there ever is.And the only place where roots can be seen to clearly have been dug up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 13:17:18 GMT -5
It's simple. Don't resist. Focus on the process; you can't control outcomes. Buckle in and enjoy the ride. I would say you can control outcomes, to a degree. To the extent you become conscious of emotions linked to degradation, you stop degradation. If you are experiencing negative outcomes in life, I would go into the feelings as deeply as possible. Making the choice to shift attention away from the feelings or throw your hands up in the air and call it God's will is selling yourself short of your creative potential. But yes, I recommend buckling up prior to any of that. It's the emotions generated by the degradation that is wanted. They are the known. The mind reaches for them because they are self-created and therefore safe. The last thing that the mind wants is to be witness to the love within you for existence. It's heartbreaking. And the heart will be defended at all costs.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 24, 2019 22:07:23 GMT -5
I would say you can control outcomes, to a degree. To the extent you become conscious of emotions linked to degradation, you stop degradation. If you are experiencing negative outcomes in life, I would go into the feelings as deeply as possible. Making the choice to shift attention away from the feelings or throw your hands up in the air and call it God's will is selling yourself short of your creative potential. But yes, I recommend buckling up prior to any of that. It's the emotions generated by the degradation that is wanted. They are the known. The mind reaches for them because they are self-created and therefore safe. The last thing that the mind wants is to be witness to the love within you for existence. It's heartbreaking. And the heart will be defended at all costs. The mind wants to become still if given the opportunity if I were to stick with the mind wanting something scenario, otherwise meditation practice which stills the mind would be impossible if it wasn't the natural tendency of the mind to quieten down to the least excitable state.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 22:18:48 GMT -5
I giraffed you then. My first. How does it feel? This talk here, not your response per se, is like what happens in my head. I big tangled ball of yarn that you believe you're untangling but the opposite is happening. This "giraffe" is what the LOA folks would call a "co-creation". It's not like I've ever layed out some sort of clear vocabulary map, rather, I've found "awakening" to be a useful term in some of the dialogs with some folks here over time. Sorry for any confusion that this might have caused. No apology necessary. Confusion is the natural state.
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