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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 22:21:06 GMT -5
I think a more accurate way to have stated this is, "You mean others just saw him appear to do those things and assumed that he was a separate volitional person, called 'Ramana,' who was doing those things just as they themselves thought that they were separate volitional persons also doing things." This may be exactly what Satch meant, but it wasn't totally clear in the way that it was worded. Never was a fan of SVP. The V seems redundant so does the S. A person by definition is separate and has volition, will. Even though there's no such thing. These are reefs terms. He's toked once too often.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 24, 2019 22:42:12 GMT -5
I think a more accurate way to have stated this is, "You mean others just saw him appear to do those things and assumed that he was a separate volitional person, called 'Ramana,' who was doing those things just as they themselves thought that they were separate volitional persons also doing things." This may be exactly what Satch meant, but it wasn't totally clear in the way that it was worded. Never was a fan of SVP. The V seems redundant so does the S. A person by definition is separate and has volition, will. Even though there's no such thing. These are reefs terms. He's toked once too often. There is selfing but no identifiable, localized self anywhere you look.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 25, 2019 7:10:28 GMT -5
I think a more accurate way to have stated this is, "You mean others just saw him appear to do those things and assumed that he was a separate volitional person, called 'Ramana,' who was doing those things just as they themselves thought that they were separate volitional persons also doing things." This may be exactly what Satch meant, but it wasn't totally clear in the way that it was worded. Never was a fan of SVP. The V seems redundant so does the S. A person by definition is separate and has volition, will. Even though there's no such thing. These are reefs terms. He's toked once too often. It's just a simple acronym for describing how most adults think of their sense of identity. Most of us on this forum know that there's no such thing, so it's just a way of pointing to the conventional societal perspective versus SR/TR.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 25, 2019 12:08:48 GMT -5
Right, which is why understanding the compensatory identity can prevent a war. Yes, and I'd go so far to assert that even people-peeps can come to a measure of understanding in this regard. It's just a matter of listening to what the other people are actually saying, with genuine empathy, even when they're completely wrapped-up in an obvious emotional maelstrom that occludes any possibility of objectivity. Sure, and of course without projecting one's own self conflict into the thought processes of whoever one is listening to.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 25, 2019 12:27:14 GMT -5
Having shifted attention away from mind and dwelled in states of sacred non dual peace myself, it's clear shifting attention away from thinking does not lead to clarity with regard to mind function, although it may plant the seed for the flowering of new understanding. It can keep be a great way to keep mind unconscious, as well as lead to respite from problem thoughts and feelings. If that's being experienced as bliss, then it's only a matter of time before law of attraction brings that bliss to an end. It's not that God doesn't like the unconscious, it's that the unconscious don't like God, which is why they deny and reject experiences that on an ultimate level, She created. Clarity is stillness of mind which creates a space for mind to function more spontaneously and efficiently. I don't believe in law of attraction. Bliss can be a temporary experience but it is nevertheless the essence of being in the natural state. An unconscious mind can also be incredibly still for long periods of time. Such minds are very effective at not entertaining thoughts which might compromise the belief structures which allow these mind states to be. As far as not believing in law of attraction, that's fine. I'm certainly not asking you to believe me. I of course wonder if you may be talking about law of attraction as peddled by swindlers, whereas what I am open to discussing is how causal emotions, when left un-addressed, compound and lead to resonances that attract what some people might think of as negative experiences. A young child abandoned by their parents who doesn't address the emotion through adulthood will actually attract complimentary relationships that expose and exploit the emotion. For example, an adult woman may be scared to leave her husband even in the wake of abuse and infidelity out of fear of exposing childhood trauma, her own emotion of abandonment. The idea shifting attention into a mind state of stillness is going to help her, is more exploitation and avoidance of the already existing emotion. If someone teaching that claims to be teaching clarity, it won't be difficult to refute that claim. The truth of her experience needs to be faced, and felt, and not denied through mind games, if of course we are talking about freedom and being at one with truth/God.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 25, 2019 12:40:23 GMT -5
I would say you can control outcomes, to a degree. To the extent you become conscious of emotions linked to degradation, you stop degradation. If you are experiencing negative outcomes in life, I would go into the feelings as deeply as possible. Making the choice to shift attention away from the feelings or throw your hands up in the air and call it God's will is selling yourself short of your creative potential. But yes, I recommend buckling up prior to any of that. Shirking feelings was once a problem, no longer. But this idea that fairy tales do come true is Disney-wacky. All this negative and positive stuff is foreign to me and uninteresting. If someone shows you a carrot, be very suspicious. My life is good. How about yours? Would genocide not be a positive or negative thing from your perspective? I wonder how genuine you are being when you say positive and negative stuff is foreign to you. On the fairy tale notion, I think you're hitting a nail on the head. Childhood dreams, which we might think of as fairy tale, can carry into adulthood. Childhood desires arise out of the condition of love we happen to be existing in at the time, and are compensations (to a degree) for already existing emotional injuries. These compensations are out of alignment with potential, because they formulate through a denial of what is and then attempt to compensate for that denial. Our emotional condition as children depends on surroundings, the conditions we are exposed to in our upbringing. The soul condition of our parents or caretakers tends to be the primary force that creates injuries which we then attempt to compensate for with the desire mechanism. And when these compensations are sought out, and fail to heal the pain we already carry, many continue the cycle into death (often leaving the person in a horrific emotional state), while some take to meditation practices and the comfort of avatars or deified men to play the role of parent in our adult life because on the inside we're still emoting like children looking for the love we didn't receive as a child. Real love, meaning love in harmony with truth, as opposed to our parents version of love, or even our own. There is also an even darker side to this, when spiritual teachers can cloak the soul complex of students, and this is hardly a fairy tale version of reality. I would call it a nightmare, and this nightmare is prevalent even on this forum. However, to the degree we clear emotional injuries, is to the same degree our resonance as a human being changes, and this change leads to a different set of attractive and repulsive forces being created locally, and this will lead to a more harmonious life or relationship between your conditioned desires and the conditions being attracted to you, which of course, is always the condition of now.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 25, 2019 12:45:26 GMT -5
You mentioned earlier that you were shifting your attention away from thinking over and over, and then suddenly the illusion of selfhood collapsed. Why were you shifting your attention away from thinking in the first place? I presume you correlated thinking with feeling a certain way and the absence of thinking with the absence of that feeling. When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. I began shifting attention away from thoughts as a result of two realizations. The first realization was that when I meditated, I was interacting with the world differently than when I thought about it. This prompted me to increase the time I spent directly perceiving the world through the senses. This manifested as long walks on country roads during which I tried to look at the world without naming anything or thinking about it. The second realization occurred after seeing birds and squirrels for the first time in many years. I suddenly realized that I had spent many years living in my head and not seeing the world around me. I had very strong memories from childhood about times when I spent numerous hours looking in silence at stars or ants crawling through the grass. I concluded that, as an adult, I had lost the ability to look at the world in silence, and decided to find out if it was possible for an adult to look at the world in silence. This eventually became a primary practice coupled with other meditative practices. zd said You mentioned being like a child, smelling, seeing, and interacting as a child does. Children also cry basically immediately when they feel hurt or don't get what they want, and yet we see no mention of that in your reflections. I would say the incessant worries that spawned your meditations were not simply caused by incessant thinking, but childhood emotions that were never addressed.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 25, 2019 12:51:15 GMT -5
I would say you can control outcomes, to a degree. To the extent you become conscious of emotions linked to degradation, you stop degradation. If you are experiencing negative outcomes in life, I would go into the feelings as deeply as possible. Making the choice to shift attention away from the feelings or throw your hands up in the air and call it God's will is selling yourself short of your creative potential. But yes, I recommend buckling up prior to any of that. It's the emotions generated by the degradation that is wanted. They are the known. The mind reaches for them because they are self-created and therefore safe. The last thing that the mind wants is to be witness to the love within you for existence. It's heartbreaking. And the heart will be defended at all costs. I don't think people enjoy the feeling of degradation, but I would say things that make you feel safe are just another layer of denial of the fear of feeling unsafe, which I'm sure everyone on this forum has felt numerous times throughout life. On the flipside, the light of consciousness can lead to the absence of that feeling of unsafeness, as one gets closer to God. Big difference between that and an egoic feeling of security.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 25, 2019 14:55:21 GMT -5
I began shifting attention away from thoughts as a result of two realizations. The first realization was that when I meditated, I was interacting with the world differently than when I thought about it. This prompted me to increase the time I spent directly perceiving the world through the senses. This manifested as long walks on country roads during which I tried to look at the world without naming anything or thinking about it. The second realization occurred after seeing birds and squirrels for the first time in many years. I suddenly realized that I had spent many years living in my head and not seeing the world around me. I had very strong memories from childhood about times when I spent numerous hours looking in silence at stars or ants crawling through the grass. I concluded that, as an adult, I had lost the ability to look at the world in silence, and decided to find out if it was possible for an adult to look at the world in silence. This eventually became a primary practice coupled with other meditative practices. zd said You mentioned being like a child, smelling, seeing, and interacting as a child does. Children also cry basically immediately when they feel hurt or don't get what they want, and yet we see no mention of that in your reflections. I would say the incessant worries that spawned your meditations were not simply caused by incessant thinking, but childhood emotions that were never addressed. I'm always humored by this kind of projective speculation, but I've read enough about childhood trauma to know that such a thing is certainly possible for some people. I've related one very funny story about this issue in the past, so I won't repeat it again, but the short version is that some psychologists/psychiatrists see either a dysfunctional childhood or sexual dysfunction behind every set of psychic symptoms even in cases where there's a much simpler and more obvious physical explanation for the symptoms. As one trivial example, there are numerous vitamins and nutrients whose lack will inexorably lead to psychosis. No matter what kind of childhood experiences the patients had, they will continue to exhibit psychosis until the missing vitamin is infused. At one time in the past there were thousands of people in mental institutions whose diets lacked vitamin B3, and many psychiatrists at that time speculated that childhood traumas were the cause of the bizarre symptoms. Ironically, many psychiatrists even today never ask their patients about their lifestyle or eating habits or do any bloodwork, and still search for symptom causation in early childhood experiences. As a double irony, if a patient claims to have had an extremely happy childhood, the physician who strongly believes in early childhood trauma causation will often conclude that the patient is in denial!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 14:56:08 GMT -5
Shirking feelings was once a problem, no longer. But this idea that fairy tales do come true is Disney-wacky. All this negative and positive stuff is foreign to me and uninteresting. If someone shows you a carrot, be very suspicious. My life is good. How about yours? Would genocide not be a positive or negative thing from your perspective? I wonder how genuine you are being when you say positive and negative stuff is foreign to you. On the fairy tale notion, I think you're hitting a nail on the head. Childhood dreams, which we might think of as fairy tale, can carry into adulthood. Childhood desires arise out of the condition of love we happen to be existing in at the time, and are compensations (to a degree) for already existing emotional injuries. These compensations are out of alignment with potential, because they formulate through a denial of what is and then attempt to compensate for that denial. Our emotional condition as children depends on surroundings, the conditions we are exposed to in our upbringing. The soul condition of our parents or caretakers tends to be the primary force that creates injuries which we then attempt to compensate for with the desire mechanism. And when these compensations are sought out, and fail to heal the pain we already carry, many continue the cycle into death (often leaving the person in a horrific emotional state), while some take to meditation practices and the comfort of avatars or deified men to play the role of parent in our adult life because on the inside we're still emoting like children looking for the love we didn't receive as a child. Real love, meaning love in harmony with truth, as opposed to our parents version of love, or even our own. There is also an even darker side to this, when spiritual teachers can cloak the soul complex of students, and this is hardly a fairy tale version of reality. I would call it a nightmare, and this nightmare is prevalent even on this forum. However, to the degree we clear emotional injuries, is to the same degree our resonance as a human being changes, and this change leads to a different set of attractive and repulsive forces being created locally, and this will lead to a more harmonious life or relationship between your conditioned desires and the conditions being attracted to you, which of course, is always the condition of now. Funny thing is some times the greatest beauty rises from horrific circumstances. That's the weird thing about life. These great contrasts. Surrender and acceptance leads to greater love and forgiveness. Meditation does quite the opposite. It's hard to hide if you are sincere about your practice. You should try it. Attraction, repulsion, resonance. They are as foreign to me as positive and negative.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 15:35:18 GMT -5
It's the emotions generated by the degradation that is wanted. They are the known. The mind reaches for them because they are self-created and therefore safe. The last thing that the mind wants is to be witness to the love within you for existence. It's heartbreaking. And the heart will be defended at all costs. I don't think people enjoy the feeling of degradation, but I would say things that make you feel safe are just another layer of denial of the fear of feeling unsafe, which I'm sure everyone on this forum has felt numerous times throughout life. On the flipside, the light of consciousness can lead to the absence of that feeling of unsafeness, as one gets closer to God. Big difference between that and an egoic feeling of security. What is God?
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 25, 2019 21:44:31 GMT -5
I don't think people enjoy the feeling of degradation, but I would say things that make you feel safe are just another layer of denial of the fear of feeling unsafe, which I'm sure everyone on this forum has felt numerous times throughout life. On the flipside, the light of consciousness can lead to the absence of that feeling of unsafeness, as one gets closer to God. Big difference between that and an egoic feeling of security. What is God? Everything
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 25, 2019 22:10:56 GMT -5
some psychologists/psychiatrists see either a dysfunctional childhood or sexual dysfunction behind every set of psychic symptoms even in cases where there's a much simpler and more obvious physical explanation for the symptoms. We are in the so called snowflake generation where everyone has to be shielded and protected from all the bad stuff called life. Bizarrely one example includes free thinking university students who want to be warned about the content of courses that could cause possible personal trauma in attending courses that deal with bad stuff like slavery and war. In health terms more and more people have asthma and other allergies because they were protected too much as children so didn't go out and play in the dirt to build up their immune systems like I did. Psychoanalysts are also complicit in this and are desperate to find something wrong with everybody. Just by writing this I have revealed that I have a syndrome which is either anti snowflake syndrome or rejecting syndromes syndrome. Every year the American DSM–5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) finds new mental disorders to add to its huge list of every conceivable thing that might be wrong with you as a human being. A friend of mine was convinced by a therapist that she had childhood repressed memory syndrome and became convinced that she was sexually abused by her father but had forgotten all about it. It turned out to be untrue. The therapist assumed it must be true and planted a powerful false memory in her mind. I'd better go now because I just saw a van pull up with some men in white coats.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 1:37:39 GMT -5
How is Jason going to get closer to Everything?
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Post by laughter on Jun 26, 2019 4:49:07 GMT -5
Yes, and I'd go so far to assert that even people-peeps can come to a measure of understanding in this regard. It's just a matter of listening to what the other people are actually saying, with genuine empathy, even when they're completely wrapped-up in an obvious emotional maelstrom that occludes any possibility of objectivity. Sure, and of course without projecting one's own self conflict into the thought processes of whoever one is listening to. Can't argue with you here -- and it's actually really interesting to compare conventional self-honesty to the prescriptions from RM, Niz and Tolle -- but .. inevitably, some men and women will be foreign to you, so witnessing something within them that didn't come from you does happen sometimes.
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