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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 9:49:30 GMT -5
And would you say that every man that has ever died, passionately believed that his good was the greatest? I'm certain from what some of them have said that they had their doubts, especially in the last few days or hours. As one immersed in a culture where a healthy dose of self-depreciation is taken to be the mark of a rounded human adult, I genuinely find your observations unsettling.
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2019 10:05:20 GMT -5
I'm certain from what some of them have said that they had their doubts, especially in the last few days or hours. As one immersed in a culture where a healthy dose of self-depreciation is taken to be the mark of a rounded human adult, I genuinely find your observations unsettling. Well, for what it's worth, I didn't intend nor was I conscious of any sort of self-aggrandizement in that.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 24, 2019 10:10:35 GMT -5
I think a more accurate way to have stated this is, "You mean others just saw him appear to do those things and assumed that he was a separate volitional person, called 'Ramana,' who was doing those things just as they themselves thought that they were separate volitional persons also doing things." This may be exactly what Satch meant, but it wasn't totally clear in the way that it was worded. this took me a sec to see exactly what you meant here .. ah, ok, so, with precision, we get to preserve doership as a useful social construct. Aces! Yes. The average human adult assumes that everyone is a SVP in the same way they think about themselves. A sage sees both sides of the coin, so to speak. She accepts the conventional outlook, and interacts with people in the same way as others, but simultaneously knows that there is no actual separateness, and that the actions of all people are the actions of a singularly-unified field of being. The understanding of "no actual separation" results in great equanimity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 10:43:12 GMT -5
As one immersed in a culture where a healthy dose of self-depreciation is taken to be the mark of a rounded human adult, I genuinely find your observations unsettling. Well, for what it's worth, I didn't intend nor was I conscious of any sort of self-aggrandizement in that. No no. Please don't think that I intended to express anything more than a feeling of aghast that the majority of men believe that their good is the greatest. And are only in doubt of it when the Reaper is standing at their door. I find it a remarkable observation. And if anything was to come under the umbrella of 'conditioning', I would certainly call that mindset, it.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 24, 2019 11:02:22 GMT -5
I think a more accurate way to have stated this is, "You mean others just saw him appear to do those things and assumed that he was a separate volitional person, called 'Ramana,' who was doing those things just as they themselves thought that they were separate volitional persons also doing things." This may be exactly what Satch meant, but it wasn't totally clear in the way that it was worded. That's better.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 24, 2019 11:11:04 GMT -5
Well, for what it's worth, I didn't intend nor was I conscious of any sort of self-aggrandizement in that. No no. Please don't think that I intended to express anything more than a feeling of aghast that the majority of men believe that their good is the greatest. And are only in doubt of it when the Reaper is standing at their door. I find it a remarkable observation. And if anything was to come under the umbrella of 'conditioning', I would certainly call that mindset, it. I initially took Laughter's comment as a reference to political ideas until he mentioned facing death. I then realized that he was referring to religious/spiritual/existential ideas. I have a friend who is currently facing death from terminal cancer, and he's extremely frightened and resistant because he's an atheist and he abhors the idea that who he thinks he is will soon disappear forever. People who are strongly conditioned to believe in a rewarding afterlife may face death with greater equanimity than my friend if they think they've lived life generally in accordance with the ethical doctrines of their belief system, but even those people sometimes have doubts at the end. Even if there were no other result of apprehending the Infinite than seeing the insignificance of, and illusory nature of, personal death, that, alone, would make the search for truth worthwhile.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:13:17 GMT -5
I can relate. I did this for quite some time in my late 20's. The ole shifting attention into presence. Would you agree that your mind's refusal to generate thoughts or active desire to not think is what shifting attention involved? Shifting attention away from thoughts was observed by 'that' which doesn't shift. Do you consider the person you appear to be to be beyond further evolution? This simple and effortless functioning is something I'm sure many have a reference for. Do you think someone accustomed to and able to get basically whatever they want would also find life effortless? There could still be a fear of wanting what you don't have based on the idea you can't have it operating unconsciously. I'm not saying this is happening with you, I'm just giving an example of how consciousness can be more aware of personal functioning. Well, even the arising of thinking is observed by something that does not arise and fall. I wouldn't equate that with your mind that thinks when it wants to. While it seems you are conditioned to think much less than the people around you, I also wouldn't call such a mind state enlightenment. I wouldn't call it not enlightenment either. Ok, so consciousness doesn't abide in mind, but in your case, it does seem your mind is abiding in consciousness. I also am aware of the wonderful effects this can lead to in the form of various absences. Yet I'm also aware that such abidance won't necessarily make people any more conscious as individuals. But it doesn't necessarily mean you aren't entranced by the verbiage of someone like Maharshi. Again, I'm not saying this is the case with you, just pointing that mind states of silence can be embodiments of entrancement as well. I agree with pretty much everything that you're pointing to. Yes, that which doesn't move sees all movement, and all apparent movement is one-with THAT. In this sense life is both highly personal and totally impersonal at the same time. From my POV there's no end to what can be realized, and conditions change all the time, so I have no idea what will happen next, which is perfect. It's almost like watching a movie from the standpoint of an actor in a movie who is playing a role and watching it unfold from inside the role. Ok. You mentioned earlier that you were shifting your attention away from thinking over and over, and then suddenly the illusion of selfhood collapsed. Why were you shifting your attention away from thinking in the first place? I presume you correlated thinking with feeling a certain way and the absence of thinking with the absence of that feeling. When your mind stabilized in a state you link to the non dual nature of the universe, we also see a high potential for becoming desensitized to one's emotions, particularly whatever feelings were associated the thoughts that you decided to shift attention away from. Another word for this is disassociation. I wouldn't expect you to be more conscious of why you didn't like thinking many years ago (meaning the negative thinking associate with your thoughts) if you developed a mind state that prevents the thinking from arising. Regardless, if there is a feeling trapped in your auric field, laws of conditioning would bring about events to trigger or embody it. You mentioned a while ago a story about being attacked by bees. Was this before or after you started shifting attention? I would be more concerned with unresolved emotional energy of sages than the words themselves.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:14:49 GMT -5
Ok. From your viewpoint, can conditioning be conditioned to think it isn’t conditioning? If you did that then that would just be your conditioning to do so. Can meditation experiences of shifting attention away from thought and abiding in the Self lead to conditioned confusion as to what's going on? Like the conditioning being conditioned to think it isn't conditioning or that it doesn't exist or that it's been destroyed?
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:17:41 GMT -5
I see a continued increase in consciousness between the relationship of my conditioning with the ever changing conditions in consciousness. While each of the two is essentially consciousness, as I become more aware, I also see myself getting closer to God. This has a lot more to do with a developing and processing than it does with simply realizing I wasn't separate from God in the first place. Of course consciousness doesn't increase, the person I appear as becomes less unconscious, and accordingly, there is less identification of consciousness with thoughts and feelings. Life unfolds more smoothly because the mind isn't unconsciously wired to resist it's own happenings which occur spontaneously based on appearing conditions, which on the ultimate level, you yourself create. I find myself less willing or even less able to behave in a way which would lead to my own degradation, which is to say, arises out of an unconscious need to avoid how I'm feeling. And so on and so forth. In this sense, we are talking about spiritual ascension, but I don't think the desire to ascend mount woo woo is going to get anyone anywhere, except for maybe stuck. When belief structures which no longer serve us are noticed and inquired into, they are transcended and left behind. If the belief structures still serve us, even if harbored unconsciously, not likely they'll be going anywhere anytime soon. All very much self regulating and very much beyond one's control. Nevertheless, I wouldn't discount the power of intention and application of will to achieve various ends. Often in pursuit of such ends is where becoming conscious takes place... It's simple. Don't resist. Focus on the process; you can't control outcomes. Buckle in and enjoy the ride. I would say you can control outcomes, to a degree. To the extent you become conscious of emotions linked to degradation, you stop degradation. If you are experiencing negative outcomes in life, I would go into the feelings as deeply as possible. Making the choice to shift attention away from the feelings or throw your hands up in the air and call it God's will is selling yourself short of your creative potential. But yes, I recommend buckling up prior to any of that.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:30:14 GMT -5
I see a continued increase in consciousness between the relationship of my conditioning with the ever changing conditions in consciousness. While each of the two is essentially consciousness, as I become more aware, I also see myself getting closer to God. This has a lot more to do with a developing and processing than it does with simply realizing I wasn't separate from God in the first place. Of course consciousness doesn't increase, the person I appear as becomes less unconscious, and accordingly, there is less identification of consciousness with thoughts and feelings. Life unfolds more smoothly because the mind isn't unconsciously wired to resist it's own happenings which occur spontaneously based on appearing conditions, which on the ultimate level, you yourself create. I find myself less willing or even less able to behave in a way which would lead to my own degradation, which is to say, arises out of an unconscious need to avoid how I'm feeling. And so on and so forth. In this sense, we are talking about spiritual ascension, but I don't think the desire to ascend mount woo woo is going to get anyone anywhere, except for maybe stuck. When belief structures which no longer serve us are noticed and inquired into, they are transcended and left behind. If the belief structures still serve us, even if harbored unconsciously, not likely they'll be going anywhere anytime soon. All very much self regulating and very much beyond one's control. Nevertheless, I wouldn't discount the power of intention and application of will to achieve various ends. Often in pursuit of such ends is where becoming conscious takes place... Yeah, I completely rezz with those first two paragraphs. It's like yer writing my diary for me. Beliefs still happen after SR, but they happen differently. The way I'd describe it is that if you ever bother to look into them then things get real clear, real quick, which is precisely what Ramana was trying to get people to do by facing them with "who is it that has this question?". My recollection and observation of other's is that the exact same process can happen for someone pre-SR, but it will always happen in the context of the sense that someone is tapping you on the shoulder from behind and running away before you can get a glimpse of them. Beliefs in harmony with love and higher unfolding are going to empower you as an individuation. Beliefs constructed to compensate for injuries are going to hold you back in the pursuit of desire, even if only eventually. While I may refer to unconscious humans as stunted at times, let's be honest, there are some highly intelligent and highly evil unconscious people on this planet, who know how to remove themselves from karmic liability, while order followers take the fall. Believing that separation isn't real can be one incredible patch to keep the puppets on strings. Even if within a context, it just so happens to be true.
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Post by satchitananda on Jun 24, 2019 11:32:18 GMT -5
If you did that then that would just be your conditioning to do so. Can meditation experiences of shifting attention away from thought and abiding in the Self lead to conditioned confusion as to what's going on? Like the conditioning being conditioned to think it isn't conditioning or that it doesn't exist or that it's been destroyed? No it leads to clarity and bliss.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:33:25 GMT -5
It's not that they want the opposite, it's that they fully understand what a distortion and disturbance the desire to want the world to be other than how it is, is. And there's a third movement going on: folks that genuinely believe that they're right about how the world needs to change for what they're convinced is the greatest good. The way I interpreted what lopez referred to is as the simple recognition of the first noble truth. Right, which is why understanding the compensatory identity can prevent a war.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Jun 24, 2019 11:38:01 GMT -5
Axooly, there are people on this forum that actively campaign against greater consciousness. Regardless, the desire for the world to change hardly necessitates unease. Change is the only constant, and so one might argue to not want change is more of an affliction. In practical terms, I think folks who consciously engage the enterprise of desire or manifestation will enjoy seeing how things unfold and playing their part in the grander scheme. To engage a desire for change unconsciously, on the flip side, will bring suffering at some point down the line, as its arising stems from already existing disharmony. Right. And what do you really know of the changes outside of your direct experience? If I am conscious of relationships between conditions and conditioning locally (my mind and my experience), I can apply those same relationships to other people's minds to see where they are operating unconsciously. Maharaj called this going into and out of focal points at will.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 11:41:23 GMT -5
No no. Please don't think that I intended to express anything more than a feeling of aghast that the majority of men believe that their good is the greatest. And are only in doubt of it when the Reaper is standing at their door. I find it a remarkable observation. And if anything was to come under the umbrella of 'conditioning', I would certainly call that mindset, it. I initially took Laughter's comment as a reference to political ideas until he mentioned facing death. I then realized that he was referring to religious/spiritual/existential ideas. I have a friend who is currently facing death from terminal cancer, and he's extremely frightened and resistant because he's an atheist and he abhors the idea that who he thinks he is will soon disappear forever. People who are strongly conditioned to believe in a rewarding afterlife may face death with greater equanimity than my friend if they think they've lived life generally in accordance with the ethical doctrines of their belief system, but even those people sometimes have doubts at the end. Even if there were no other result of apprehending the Infinite than seeing the insignificance of, and illusory nature of, personal death, that, alone, would make the search for truth worthwhile. Yes, I have seen friends wonder whether they have done enough. One friend was working at home for the NHS, right up until the weekend of her death from terminal cancer. Determined to fulfill the commitment she had made within herself. Though if I had asked her whether her good was the greatest good ever, she would have just laughed at me. It's this idea that a man's good is somehow better than his brother's or his neighbour's is what I feel aghast at. It can only ever be an unnecessary weight, one that clearly doesn't get past the reality of Death.
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2019 11:47:28 GMT -5
Well, for what it's worth, I didn't intend nor was I conscious of any sort of self-aggrandizement in that. No no. Please don't think that I intended to express anything more than a feeling of aghast that the majority of men believe that their good is the greatest. And are only in doubt of it when the Reaper is standing at their door. I find it a remarkable observation. And if anything was to come under the umbrella of 'conditioning', I would certainly call that mindset, it. Oh! ok, sorry I misinterpreted, and thanks for the kind words. Beautiful solstice-week weather here today .. Sue talked us out of a lake trip, but I'm goin' on Thursday no matter what, even if she sticks in the mud.
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