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Mar 13, 2019 4:15:08 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2019 4:15:08 GMT -5
Savage. You would be too if you lived in the deep woods and stalked hikers for fun. oh, right, he needs those carbs for all that hiking.
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Mar 13, 2019 10:02:31 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2019 10:02:31 GMT -5
But does the Whole *act through* the mind-body *that is* ZD? Is there a ZD like the Wheelwright? (What has been called tacit knowing www.nwlink.com/~donclark/history_knowledge/polanyi.html ). I don't care what you call it. When ZD is dead and gone, will there be a "hole" left, a not-place which the universe cannot function-through as it does now? No, because that would be the same as saying that what is in the field of experience is independent of it. I don't see how that follows.
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Mar 13, 2019 10:04:30 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2019 10:04:30 GMT -5
It's a good explanation. I can see that. I've been in situations where anger is volitional, where I'm calm and relxed, not SR, but I select the appropriate emotion and can watch myself get angry, and display anger, to avoid a bad outcome. It's almost feigned anger, but still there's a buy into the story. I'm trying to avoid a bad outcomee. I believe this stuff is real. Even when mind stops I never act as if this stuff happening is an illusion.What would 'not real' mean to you? Not-real would be like waking up from a bad dream.
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Mar 13, 2019 10:07:44 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Mar 13, 2019 10:07:44 GMT -5
Well, what I'd say is that it might seem from the outside looking in as if someone genuinely realized might have lost themselves in the role. Anyone who thinks realization is the end of passion -- and that might be someone who's realized, btw -- just has a rather narrow perspective. Realization also doesn't immunize anyone from the possibility of deception generally or what can be characterized in reasonable terms as bad life choices. But you see, any of that can happen regardless of whether or not the existential illusion of personhood is running. Hey if you lower the bar just a little more, even oscar the grouch will be realized. 😁 Maybe the whole point is that nobody gets realized. The person always has been a link in an infinite chain of creation and destruction. Don't expect Pinocchio to suddenly become a real boy, though it may learn some new tricks from Geppetto.
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Mar 13, 2019 10:11:34 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Mar 13, 2019 10:11:34 GMT -5
Hey if you lower the bar just a little more, even oscar the grouch will be realized. 😁 heh heh, well, flipping my record to the B side of making SR unattainable ... I found "other people" to be the ultimate, best, and one of the last points of existential contemplation. One question I remember "practicing on" was "how can I stay in presence when dealing with unconscious peeps?" .. and ultimately, it's only mental silence that leads to the end of the questioning, but it has to be done with a relentless and sustained focus on the forefront of mind ... "what in the blazes, is goin' on?? " I thought you were upgrading to 8-track.
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Mar 13, 2019 11:50:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 11:50:17 GMT -5
No, because that would be the same as saying that what is in the field of experience is independent of it. I don't see how that follows. The body of Zen is interdependent of whatever environment it is in. Everything being One does not mean that there will be a Minus One when a body that existed ends.
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Mar 13, 2019 12:16:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 12:16:49 GMT -5
Hey if you lower the bar just a little more, even oscar the grouch will be realized. 😁 Maybe the whole point is that nobody gets realized. The person always has been a link in an infinite chain of creation and destruction. Don't expect Pinocchio to suddenly become a real boy, though it may learn some new tricks from Geppetto. Figaro had skillz too.
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Mar 13, 2019 12:43:31 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2019 12:43:31 GMT -5
I don't see how that follows. The body of Zen is interdependent of whatever environment it is in. Everything being One does not mean that there will be a Minus One when a body that existed ends. When the body of ten ten dies, the unique set of skills/etc. thereof will be absent, no matter how its referred to. You didn't like my metaphor? Chuang Tzu (Wheelwright story) rocks.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:04:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 13:04:46 GMT -5
The idea of a Self implies that God is personal. When one realizes what they are, there is nothing to grab onto to make it personal. You are wholeness. The person is a fragmentation of that wholeness. You've already sliced Wholeness to make it what "You are".. and now you wanna slice it again to make it a person. Fascinating. Wholeness only gets sliced if he's invoking a concept and identifying with it. He's not though, he's pointing.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:27:10 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 13:27:10 GMT -5
You've already sliced Wholeness to make it what "You are".. and now you wanna slice it again to make it a person. Fascinating. Wholeness only gets sliced if he's invoking a concept and identifying with it. He's not though, he's pointing. I know he's 'pointing'.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:31:53 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Mar 13, 2019 13:31:53 GMT -5
heh heh, well, flipping my record to the B side of making SR unattainable ... I found "other people" to be the ultimate, best, and one of the last points of existential contemplation. One question I remember "practicing on" was "how can I stay in presence when dealing with unconscious peeps?" .. and ultimately, it's only mental silence that leads to the end of the questioning, but it has to be done with a relentless and sustained focus on the forefront of mind ... "what in the blazes, is goin' on?? " I thought you were upgrading to 8-track. Those things are bugged, man. They put cookies on your rotary dial.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:34:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 13:34:29 GMT -5
The body of Zen is interdependent of whatever environment it is in. Everything being One does not mean that there will be a Minus One when a body that existed ends. When the body of ten ten dies, the unique set of skills/etc. thereof will be absent, no matter how its referred to. You didn't like my metaphor? Chuang Tzu (Wheelwright story) rocks. They won't be completely absent, some of those skills that have been owned by another 'body/mind system' will continue to exist in another expression. You're a grandfather you know this. You're duplicating much of what your own grandparents and parents gave you without even noticing it. I'm not against the metaphor and I have rarely found anything that Tzu wrote that I couldn't understand. My reason for commenting was because there are no absences in existence, even though they can dominate the human mind.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:59:00 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 13:59:00 GMT -5
Wholeness only gets sliced if he's invoking a concept and identifying with it. He's not though, he's pointing. I know he's 'pointing'. So how do you arrive at wholeness gets sliced?
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Mar 13, 2019 14:00:12 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 14:00:12 GMT -5
So how do you arrive at wholeness gets sliced? "You are.."
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Mar 13, 2019 14:01:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 14:01:31 GMT -5
So how do you arrive at wholeness gets sliced? "You are.."That's where realizing that arising appearances are not separate, comes in.
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