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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2019 12:58:57 GMT -5
Have you ever tried to read a book when you were very sleepy? Your eyes close, your head drops. You wake up a little, try to read some more. You drop to sleep... Energy is what's missing. It's fuel. Ever run out of gas while driving a car? Energy is missing. I think the physics definition is, the ability to do work. There is kinetic energy and potential energy. A boulder rolling down a hill has kinetic energy. If it hits a tree and stops, no kinetic energy but it still has potential energy. An apple has potential energy. That energy actually came from the sun in the form of photons. dot...dot...dot... What's missing is mental stimulation. If it were the most fascinating book you've ever read, there would be plenty of 'energy'.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2019 13:04:18 GMT -5
Yes, he means the psychological boundary between inside and outside. Do you see such a boundary as ultimately actual? If not, the hunt for the ZD disagreement continues. Yes, there is a functional boundary. There is a practical boundary. The boundary isn't just psychological. Yes, I agree, there is oneness, wholeness, but you still have to get up on Monday morning and earn your bread. If you don't eat, you will disappear into the oneness...as basically fertilizer. I asked you if it is ultimately actual, not if it was functional or practical. ZD would agree that there is a functional/practical boundary too. The search continues.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2019 13:08:14 GMT -5
Yes, I have. It was a psychological effect rather than an energy saving, accumulation, transformation issue with one of the sub accumulators. Have you ever actually fallen asleep while working? I have. Have you ever fallen asleep while driving? I have. If you haven't, yes, easy to call it psychological. Very hard not to. If you were working on something that held your interest, you would not fall asleep. If the scenery interested you while driving...dot...dot...dot.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2019 13:22:51 GMT -5
He said the psychological boundary that he was talking about has nothing to do with physical energy. Given that, is the apparent disagreement now resolved? He had to have a functioning consciousness in a functioning body to have that realization, otherwise he would have been unconscious, and you don't have realizations while unconscious. There is nothing in the universe that is not some movement of energy, that does not depend upon energy. (Where is Tenka when I need him? :-) ...) Yes, he would likely say that all conversations are about energy since none of them could happen without it, and I would roll my eyes like I just did. Fortunately, I had him kidnapped and tied up in an abandoned warehouse for the duration of this conversation. (We should hurry)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 18, 2019 15:03:25 GMT -5
I'll ask you the same question, have you ever experienced "second wind"? If you have, multiply that by at least ten. It wasn't a matter of just getting the job done. I was no longer exhausted. Visualize waking up on your best day, multiply that by ten. It was something I will never forget. I wasn't talking about getting the job done, just releasing psychological barriers. That's what a second wind is. Everything comes back to Consciousness, because there is only Consciousness. If we want a contextually limited explanation, I'm sure there's a biochemical one, and I wouldn't have anything to say, but your 'energy accumulators' are in a larger context that means to transcend the physical, so I get chatty. There may be agreement that Consciousness transcends the physical, but it also means there is a path by which the physical can be 'explained' that takes one through mind and progressively more subtle levels of thought and feeling until one arrives in Rome, because there is only Rome. If something happens in the body, look to the mind for your next clue. (They aren't actually separate) If the path leads to energy accumulators, I say the traveller got pulled off the main road into a cul-de-sac. Then you have never experienced second wind. No problem with that, you just haven't experienced it.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 18, 2019 15:06:07 GMT -5
Have you ever actually fallen asleep while working? I have. Have you ever fallen asleep while driving? I have. If you haven't, yes, easy to call it psychological. Very hard not to. If you were working on something that held your interest, you would not fall asleep. If the scenery interested you while driving...dot...dot...dot. I refuse to believe that you have never been so tired that sleep just came and you could do nothing about it. Just as an experiment, why not see how long you can stay awake (then you will understand).
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2019 17:08:57 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about getting the job done, just releasing psychological barriers. That's what a second wind is. Everything comes back to Consciousness, because there is only Consciousness. If we want a contextually limited explanation, I'm sure there's a biochemical one, and I wouldn't have anything to say, but your 'energy accumulators' are in a larger context that means to transcend the physical, so I get chatty. There may be agreement that Consciousness transcends the physical, but it also means there is a path by which the physical can be 'explained' that takes one through mind and progressively more subtle levels of thought and feeling until one arrives in Rome, because there is only Rome. If something happens in the body, look to the mind for your next clue. (They aren't actually separate) If the path leads to energy accumulators, I say the traveller got pulled off the main road into a cul-de-sac. Then you have never experienced second wind. No problem with that, you just haven't experienced it. From an unconscious perspective it seems physical.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2019 17:16:19 GMT -5
Very hard not to. If you were working on something that held your interest, you would not fall asleep. If the scenery interested you while driving...dot...dot...dot. I refuse to believe that you have never been so tired that sleep just came and you could do nothing about it. Just as an experiment, why not see how long you can stay awake (then you will understand). You insist that since I don't agree with you, I've never experienced what you're talking about. The next time you get sleepy reading a book, do something else that you enjoy more. Next time you are sleepy driving, don't take a nap, stop and briskly walk around for a while. That's what the paths at the rest areas are for. They're not really for resting. You haven't strained yourself by driving. You've put yourself to sleep. Obviously, physical exhaustion happens, but that's not what you've been talking about.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 19, 2019 8:47:02 GMT -5
I refuse to believe that you have never been so tired that sleep just came and you could do nothing about it. Just as an experiment, why not see how long you can stay awake (then you will understand). You insist that since I don't agree with you, I've never experienced what you're talking about. The next time you get sleepy reading a book, do something else that you enjoy more. Next time you are sleepy driving, don't take a nap, stop and briskly walk around for a while. That's what the paths at the rest areas are for. They're not really for resting. You haven't strained yourself by driving. You've put yourself to sleep. Obviously, physical exhaustion happens, but that's not what you've been talking about. My example getting up hay was exactly about exhaustion. Incredibly tired/I knew every bale was the last one I could do = exhaustion.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 19, 2019 9:37:00 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2019 10:05:47 GMT -5
You insist that since I don't agree with you, I've never experienced what you're talking about. The next time you get sleepy reading a book, do something else that you enjoy more. Next time you are sleepy driving, don't take a nap, stop and briskly walk around for a while. That's what the paths at the rest areas are for. They're not really for resting. You haven't strained yourself by driving. You've put yourself to sleep. Obviously, physical exhaustion happens, but that's not what you've been talking about. My example getting up hay was exactly about exhaustion. Incredibly tired/ I knew every bale was the last one I could do = exhaustion. And yet you were mistaken over and over.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 19, 2019 10:29:55 GMT -5
My example getting up hay was exactly about exhaustion. Incredibly tired/ I knew every bale was the last one I could do = exhaustion. And yet you were mistaken over and over. You don't get the point, yes, one accumulator was almost exhausted, the extra effort, which I didn't initiate but uncle Bruce did, brought connection to the large accumulator. We experience this rarely, or not at all, because we don't have enough will to make efforts through the very-real barrier of exhaustion. It almost always takes the will of another to cross the barrier of exhaustion. What you have described is the alternate shifting back and forth to the two small accumulators. If it ever happens to you, connecting to the large accumulator (when you exhaust the energy of the two small accumulators) is obvious, dramatic.
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2019 19:14:23 GMT -5
And yet you were mistaken over and over. You don't get the point, yes, one accumulator was almost exhausted, the extra effort, which I didn't initiate but uncle Bruce did, brought connection to the large accumulator. We experience this rarely, or not at all, because we don't have enough will to make efforts through the very-real barrier of exhaustion. It almost always takes the will of another to cross the barrier of exhaustion. What you have described is the alternate shifting back and forth to the two small accumulators. If it ever happens to you, connecting to the large accumulator (when you exhaust the energy of the two small accumulators) is obvious, dramatic. I get your point perfectly well. You're confident in your story because it explains the events of your experience. You have a 3 layer cake accumulator story that seems to fit the bill, but many different stories could be written to accomplish the same thing. In the long run, the stories do not serve you.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 20, 2019 9:42:46 GMT -5
You don't get the point, yes, one accumulator was almost exhausted, the extra effort, which I didn't initiate but uncle Bruce did, brought connection to the large accumulator. We experience this rarely, or not at all, because we don't have enough will to make efforts through the very-real barrier of exhaustion. It almost always takes the will of another to cross the barrier of exhaustion. What you have described is the alternate shifting back and forth to the two small accumulators. If it ever happens to you, connecting to the large accumulator (when you exhaust the energy of the two small accumulators) is obvious, dramatic. I get your point perfectly well. You're confident in your story because it explains the events of your experience. You have a 3 layer cake accumulator story that seems to fit the bill, but many different stories could be written to accomplish the same thing. In the long run, the stories do not serve you. Yes, I remember Zen Master Seung Sahn once saying that if enlightenment is one's primary goal, then even Zen and Buddhism must be left behind. This applies to all other belief systems as well, and it's the underlying meaning of Rinzai's famous admonition, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha." Holding onto any ideas is an obstacle to freedom.
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2019 10:34:27 GMT -5
I get your point perfectly well. You're confident in your story because it explains the events of your experience. You have a 3 layer cake accumulator story that seems to fit the bill, but many different stories could be written to accomplish the same thing. In the long run, the stories do not serve you. Yes, I remember Zen Master Seung Sahn once saying that if enlightenment is one's primary goal, then even Zen and Buddhism must be left behind. This applies to all other belief systems as well, and it's the underlying meaning of Rinzai's famous admonition, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha." Holding onto any ideas is an obstacle to freedom. Yes, and there are lots of Buddhas to be killed. The truth is too simple to tell a story about, so the point is not to figure it all out and find the correct ontology but to see all ideas for what they are.
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