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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 19, 2018 7:34:16 GMT -5
The nagging sense that "realization is not enough" is the sign of a realization that has not been fully grasped. There are many who glimpse the truth but then immediately go right back -- "Yes but how can I *apply* this realization to the self that I just saw is false?" "Yeah, I realize this, but why am I still so unhappy?"
The cure for this is further inquiry.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 7:45:10 GMT -5
The nagging sense that "realization is not enough" is the sign of a realization that has not been fully grasped. There are many who glimpse the truth but then immediately go right back -- "Yes but how can I *apply* this realization to the self that I just saw is false?" "Yeah, I realize this, but why am I still so unhappy?" The cure for this is further inquiry. Reefs called such a 'realization' an insight, which I would agree with. If an illusion was truly dropped it doesn't come back
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Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2018 7:54:35 GMT -5
Awww....Surely there is a place for kindness........ Okay this is going to be fun. Let's apply what we've been taught to real life examples. I'll start with your example: What about kindness? Well, why would you insist on being kind to an empty appearance in the first place? Sounds kinda silly. Remember, there's no one at home there, ye know? It's ALL empty appearances, all the same fluffy stuff without any real substance. Your child, your spouse, your dog, your doormat - all the same: EMPTY and lifeless. Even kindness is just an empty appearance as is its opposite belligerence. Which means essentially, belligerence is kindness and kindness is belligerence. All essentially the same empty non-truthy non-stuff. So if we follow that logic, then hate is love, bondage is freedom, delusion is enlightenment, war is peace, suffering is thriving and pain is bliss! So if you find yourself randomly accosting people in the street, that's actually true enlightenment in action! Don't just limit it to harp sounds, angelic voices and beatific smiles. You must not make conclusions based on experiences or behavior. Those are all empty truthiless appearances only. So there's no reason why you shouldn't treat the people around you any different than you would treat your doormat. Because if you actually would, that would just prove that you are buying into the story, that you got sucked into the compelling play of appearances that is all around you. And that's the last thing we want to be accused of! So be careful. You have been warned.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 8:09:56 GMT -5
Awww....Surely there is a place for kindness........ Okay this is going to be fun. Let's apply what we've been taught to real life examples. I'll start with your example: What about kindness? Well, why would you insist on being kind to an empty appearance in the first place? Sounds kinda silly. Remember, there's no one at home there, ye know? It's ALL empty appearances, all the same fluffy stuff without any real substance. Your child, your spouse, your dog, your doormat - all the same: EMPTY and lifeless. Even kindness is just an empty appearance as is its opposite belligerence. Which means essentially, belligerence is kindness and kindness is belligerence. All essentially the same empty non-truthy non-stuff. So if we follow that logic, then hate is love, bondage is freedom, delusion is enlightenment, war is peace, suffering is thriving and pain is bliss! So if you find yourself randomly accosting people in the street, that's actually true enlightenment in action! Don't just limit it to harp sounds, angelic voices and beatific smiles. You must not make conclusions based on experiences or behavior. Those are all empty truthiless appearances only. So there's no reason why you shouldn't treat the people around you any different than you would treat your doormat. Because if you actually would, that would just prove that you are buying into the story, that you got sucked into the compelling play of appearances that is all around you. And that's the last thing we want to be accused of! So be careful. You have been warned.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 8:51:33 GMT -5
I found this in one of Adyashanti's books. It basically covers everything we are discussing here in just a few paragraphs. It's a good summary of a perspective I share as well: .. What does this actual reflect though? What is realized? This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol .. If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that This to me is not living what was supposedly realized . I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded . Tenka: this is one of the main issues that seems to be in disagreement on the forum. I think all of us would agree that there is only ______________________, and that __________________ is unified, infinite, and ungraspable by the mind/intellect. I think everyone, whether SR has occurred or not, would agree that ___________________ is what we are. Some of us think that _________________ is an appearance in consciousness, only, a dream, whereas others think that it is a tangible living Presence that, in your terminology, has "substance." I hesitate to use the word "substance" because that word implies physical matter, and modern physics indicates that what we call "matter" is actually a form of what we might call "compressed energy." I also hesitate to use the word "substance" because various non-local events (which most religious people call "miracles") indicate that mind can interact with matter in ways that challenge the idea of an objective solidity. Everyone on the forum lives as though ________________ is tangible and physical, so no one steps out in front of a bus, but people who think of ____________________as an appearance, only, would say that this is all just part of the dream. People who cease to identify solely with a body, and deeply realize that what they really are is ________________________, may still think about the situation in these two different ways. The reason that Zen people take a radically "concrete" approach to all things existential is to avoid both of these ways of thinking about ________________. The Zen approach is exactly in accordance with what Adya is pointing to in this quote, but it is non-theoretical. It prefers to put what he's pointing to into practice through direct action. IOW, Zen people are so interested in third mountain that they choose to live on third mountain and act rather than theorize. In a sense, they psychologically become the One-in-action, and this is why the highest goal in Zen is to "become an ordinary person" free of self-referential reflection who has left all ideas about "enlightenment" or "attainment" behind. From my POV it doesn't seem to make any difference which way people choose to think and talk about this issue because everyone lives as though reality is physical (has substance). It probably makes a difference psychologically, but the issues are so subtle and so hard to communicate that I doubt any agreement could be reached about that. I'll give one example: In 1984, after 5 months of meditation and several nights spent in NS, this body/mind had a kensho experience/realization that radically changed its understanding of reality and its way of being. It was as if a switch in the brain flipped from one neural pathway to totally different neural pathway. For two days the body/mind lived in a totally alive and dynamic world. It wanted nothing for itself (I actually tried to give away everything my wife and I owned, but my actions freaked out everyone around me--haha). I was only interested in helping other people. What we call "ego" vanished, and all kinds of amazing things happened. It literally felt as if the body/mind were living in heaven rather than on earth. After about two and a half days, ego returned, along with the dead world that had existed previously. That introduction to "the kingdom of God," or whatever we want to call it, led to a long search for how to re-enter that world and also a search for contextual understanding. Eventually, the illusion of being a SVP collapsed, and I finally saw that I am ______________________. As Adya notes, SR ended the search for understanding because the searcher was discovered to have been ___________________ rather than a SVP. That event led to a different way of life, further realizations, and an internalization of what it means to be ________________ in action. FWIW, the body/mind never returned to what we might call a "Christ-conscious" state of mind living in "the kingdom of God." It knows that although that sort of thing is possible, it also accepts that whatever is happening in the present moment is not something directed by a SVP, and it is content to be "an ordinary person" doing whatever needs to be done. It's impossible to convey to someone else what it's like to live in "the kingdom of God," and it's also impossible to convey what it's like to live without the sense of being a SVP. All of us live in psychological landscapes that are uniquely different, and the best that we can do is compare notes and share as best we can what we've seen along the way. We have all had different experiences and realizations, and all that we can do with people who have reached different conclusions about what's been seen or understood is agree to disagree.
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Post by explorer on Oct 19, 2018 8:54:20 GMT -5
This isn't going to help but I'll leave my response to my old Quaker friend Willam Penn:
" True godliness don't turn men out of the world.....(We) should keep to the helm and guide the vessel to its port, and not meanly steal out at the stern of the world and leave those that are in it without a pilot to be driven by the fury of evil times upon the rock of sand and ruin."
Yes I know that there isn't really a helm, a vessel, a port and rocks, but still, at the very least you have to admire dear William's turn of phrase in 1682.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 19, 2018 9:15:16 GMT -5
.. What does this actual reflect though? What is realized? This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol .. If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that This to me is not living what was supposedly realized . I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded . Correct. The realization doesn't actually seem to carry over into 'real' life for those who have 'realized' that everything is just appearances. The everyday pre-SR experience and the everyday post-SR experience seem to be identical. So the realization didn't even make a dent in practical terms. That's why I remain highly doubtful that this should be even called a realization. It's actually more like an insight, which is only memory based. Which means as long as you make an effort to consciously remember it, you'll act accordingly. But as soon as you get distracted and sucked into what's happening, you'll forget what you've 'realized' and act as if nothing ever had actually been realized. A realization, on the other hand, will be realized with your entire being, down to every cell in your body. Realizations have real consequences. This so-called realization obviously doesn't. So from my perspective, it's not worth calling a realization at all. So this will also explain why they obviously are going to disagree with Adya on this point, i.e. that you should be what you have realized. Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it, too. As one simple example, kensho totally destroyed my prior attachment to the idea of capital punishment. Afterwards, I never again saw people who do "bad" things as evil; I saw them as ignorant and capable of waking up from ignorance. A long list of other similar changes in attitude and understanding occurred, and those changes haven't varied over the last three decades. SR, by contrast, was significant but less life-changing. SR ended the search for "the Big Picture," resulted in a loss of many prior self-referential thinking patterns, and eliminated the imaginary boundary between "inside" and "outside," so life then began to flow. If I had to choose between the two realizations, it would be a toss-up. One reveals the Infinite, and the other ends the search. It's all good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 9:57:54 GMT -5
Correct. The realization doesn't actually seem to carry over into 'real' life for those who have 'realized' that everything is just appearances. The everyday pre-SR experience and the everyday post-SR experience seem to be identical. Identical? Not so. The pre SR view imagines an existent 'external world' and a separate me who navigates in relationship to that external world. The realization that's it's all appearance, arising within that which I am, has profound ramifications in terms of how life is lived thereafter, the main/most encompassing one being; You are no longer 'lost to' the story/the dream/the world of form...the ramifications of THAT....well, we're talking 'freedom'...'Peace.' So yes, the realization really does carry over into 'real life.' What do you base that upon? Have you seen evidence that those who speak of 'appearances arising within being,' of 'the world arising within that which I am,' having to consciously 'remember' that there is no independently existent external world apart from the one that appears within Being? What would be your indicator that that there is distraction from that realization...that 'forgetting' of it happens? Being what you have realized, happens naturally if the realization is actual and complete. You don't have to "try" to be "at One" with it all.....SR really does take care of that. If there is an actual interest in 'purification' in the sense of seeing old conditionings fall away, I'd say that happens naturally too, by virtue of that interest. If that interest isn't there. you can't 'make it' be there. So, this is one of Adya's quotes that I'm not so sure about. That said, he doesn't really say that anyone 'should' be doing anything in particular to 'live according to his realization' ...although the very suggestion that one who is SR should be living his realization I guess is enough. In your estimation Reefs, how exactly does one "DO" that? "Live" his realization? Are there steps....practices....a particular focus that one should try to adopt to make that happen? This seems to fly in the face of so much that you've said previously on this subject. There was a time where you stood very resistant to the mere suggestion of connecting with your motivations for engaging on the forum, to share them with me. You insisted that I was asking you to play "identity" poker in doing so, and you just weren't up for doing that. Do you see any problems at all with the idea that post SR, one 'should' be living a certain way in order to truly be living his realization? What would those 'ways' of living actually look like?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:00:52 GMT -5
The nagging sense that "realization is not enough" is the sign of a realization that has not been fully grasped. There are many who glimpse the truth but then immediately go right back -- "Yes but how can I *apply* this realization to the self that I just saw is false?" "Yeah, I realize this, but why am I still so unhappy?" The cure for this is further inquiry. Reefs called such a 'realization' an insight, which I would agree with. If an illusion was truly dropped it doesn't come backExactly, that's why I take issue with an idea that suggests we should strive to live in a certain manner that reflects the dropping away of this illusion.
If the illusions really have been seen through, way of being, reflects that. One cannot 'not' live from a place of Oneness, if he's truly realized 'no separation.'
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:13:26 GMT -5
Okay this is going to be fun. Let's apply what we've been taught to real life examples. I'll start with your example: What about kindness? Well, why would you insist on being kind to an empty appearance in the first place? Sounds kinda silly. Remember, there's no one at home there, ye know? No, actually, ye "don't" know. That's the point that's been made. You don't know either way. Thus, you simply engage the appearance AS it appears. The 'appearance' of those, is not lifeless at all. The experience is of vibrancy, life, the presence of conscious being, the presence of sentience, communion, relationship. Just because something is 'an appearance' does not mean that it fails to captivate, to engage me deeply, to evoke passion, caring, awe, gratitude....you name it. The experience of kindness, indeed an appearance/experiential content, is palpably felt, it warms, it fosters a sense of well being, of reciprocal good will. Although all that is experiential, it's no small thing...still very much has value in terms of overall life experience. There's a huge difference between 'not buying into the story/not getting fully sucked in/lost to the story' and 'engagement with the story.' As I keep saying, 'engagement with the story' continues....which means, at times, passionate engagement. It just means you don't fall back into the story/ back to sleep, forgetting that it ultimately, really is ALL, just a play of ideas. Nothing serious actually going on here. That's a quote from AH you've referenced yourself, haven't you?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:23:38 GMT -5
Reefs called such a 'realization' an insight, which I would agree with. If an illusion was truly dropped it doesn't come backExactly, that's why I take issue with an idea that suggests we should strive to live in a certain manner that reflects the dropping away of this illusion. If the illusions really have been seen through, way of being, reflects that. One cannot 'not' live from a place of Oneness, if he's truly realized 'no separation.'
What idea that suggests you should strive to live in a certain manner? I think you're grouping a lot of illusions under the banner of "Oneness". I don't know what 'living from a place of Oneness' is supposed to mean. Pilgrim has said the same, and I didn't understand his point either.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:36:08 GMT -5
Tenka: this is one of the main issues that seems to be in disagreement on the forum. I think all of us would agree that there is only ______________________, and that __________________ is unified, infinite, and ungraspable by the mind/intellect. Yes. And "If" ___________is truly 'ungraspable by mind/intellect' that means that anything we try to say "about" it, is going to be a pointer only, not an 'actual' concrete quality/property/trait. This is why I take issue with the assertion that concrete/definable traits/properties (aliveness) can be ascribed to ___________. Those who are asserting a generalized but defintive 'aliveness' that by virtue of no separation, applies to each arising object/thing within experience, are turning ____________into that which is subject to 'property/quality' which means,___________is no longer a pointer, but something that CAN be conceptually grasped. In truth, it cannot be. As I've said, I have no problem with folks suggesting that the universe is 'alive' or 'intelligent' in a metaphorical, pointery kind of way, but that's not what's being suggested. Folks (you too it seems) are adamant that ______________really is 'alive' in the generally accepted sense that that word is taken. That sounds like a mix up; Indeed,___________is what we are. But I've not heard anyone here say that _________________is an appearance in consciousness...or a dream. _______________references that which is the ground/foundation of all, does it not? No one is saying the ground/foundation is an arising/appearance. How about we use 'substance' as that which is not dependently arising? As in, all experiential content, arises, dependent upon the ground, which is Being? or if you prefer "_____________". Again, I think you are using "__________" there, where you should be using the term 'form/experiential content.' Seeing that it's all just a play of ideas, dream-stuff does not mean that we cease to engage with life, often passionately. If SR is the case, and seeing that there is no external world, that the realm of form is but an arising within that which I am, then it really is more than just 'thinking about the situation' in a certain way. The seeing that 'it's all just a play of ideas' abides, and underscores the totality of experience, which means, you don't forget, you don't fall back asleep into full immersion within 'the play,' rather, there is abiding awareness that nothing truly, terribly serious really is going on here. I'd say there's a huge difference between one who lives from a seeing that what's going on here is darned serious vs. one who sees it's really just a sort of lark...not really so serious at all...ultimately, a dream of sorts.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 10:37:42 GMT -5
Correct. The realization doesn't actually seem to carry over into 'real' life for those who have 'realized' that everything is just appearances. The everyday pre-SR experience and the everyday post-SR experience seem to be identical. So the realization didn't even make a dent in practical terms. That's why I remain highly doubtful that this should be even called a realization. It's actually more like an insight, which is only memory based. Which means as long as you make an effort to consciously remember it, you'll act accordingly. But as soon as you get distracted and sucked into what's happening, you'll forget what you've 'realized' and act as if nothing ever had actually been realized. A realization, on the other hand, will be realized with your entire being, down to every cell in your body. Realizations have real consequences. This so-called realization obviously doesn't. So from my perspective, it's not worth calling a realization at all. So this will also explain why they obviously are going to disagree with Adya on this point, i.e. that you should be what you have realized. Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it, too. As one simple example, kensho totally destroyed my prior attachment to the idea of capital punishment. Afterwards, I never again saw people who do "bad" things as evil; I saw them as ignorant and capable of waking up from ignorance. A long list of other similar changes in attitude and understanding occurred, and those changes haven't varied over the last three decades. SR, by contrast, was significant but less life-changing. SR ended the search for "the Big Picture," resulted in a loss of many prior self-referential thinking patterns, and eliminated the imaginary boundary between "inside" and "outside," so life then began to flow. If I had to choose between the two realizations, it would be a toss-up. One reveals the Infinite, and the other ends the search. It's all good. Interesting. Seeing through separation took care of that one for me.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2018 10:41:16 GMT -5
Okay this is going to be fun. Let's apply what we've been taught to real life examples. I'll start with your example: What about kindness? Well, why would you insist on being kind to an empty appearance in the first place? Sounds kinda silly. Remember, there's no one at home there, ye know? No, actually, ye "don't" know. That's the point that's been made. You don't know either way. Thus, you simply engage the appearance AS it appears. Not according to Enigma.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2018 10:42:49 GMT -5
Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it, too. As one simple example, kensho totally destroyed my prior attachment to the idea of capital punishment. Afterwards, I never again saw people who do "bad" things as evil; I saw them as ignorant and capable of waking up from ignorance. A long list of other similar changes in attitude and understanding occurred, and those changes haven't varied over the last three decades. SR, by contrast, was significant but less life-changing. SR ended the search for "the Big Picture," resulted in a loss of many prior self-referential thinking patterns, and eliminated the imaginary boundary between "inside" and "outside," so life then began to flow. If I had to choose between the two realizations, it would be a toss-up. One reveals the Infinite, and the other ends the search. It's all good. Interesting. Seeing through separation took care of that one for me. Both kensho and satori are oneness realizations.
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