Realization alone is not enough

[zendancer]

Oct 19, 2018 17:04:12 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

Oct 19, 2018 16:42:31 GMT -5 zendancer said:

In the quote Adya is simply telling people that SR is not the end of the line, and that realizations don't necessarily stop there. SR is just the end of active seeking. I know what Adya meant by that phrase, but that may be because we both spent years in Zen and share a similar background. It's just a pointer.

I'm not so sure about that. Adya as I see it,  is very clear on the distinction between 'mystical experience' vs. 'realization.'

He has very specific criteria for what actually constitutes 'realization.' To him, it's definitely not experiential at all.

I actually don't see him talking at all about actual other 'Truth realizations' beyond what he calls  'abiding awakening' ie; If one is awake, and that is abiding,  he's 'seen through' the whole enchilada that was muddying things up previously.

He does though speak about a momentary awakening, an initial glimpse and then falling back asleep, getting sucked back into the dream, vs. abiding wakefulness.

This is why I found it kind of suprising then, that he seems to be suggesting one can be fully, abidingly awake, and still somehow be failing to live from the realization of Oneness.

I was referring ONLY to SR, not kensho-realizations, so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. SR is usually the end of active seeking, but it's not the end of what can be discovered. It's turtles all the way down, and there is no end to the turtles.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2018 19:44:55 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Oct 19, 2018 17:04:12 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

I'm not so sure about that. Adya as I see it,  is very clear on the distinction between 'mystical experience' vs. 'realization.'

He has very specific criteria for what actually constitutes 'realization.' To him, it's definitely not experiential at all.

I actually don't see him talking at all about actual other 'Truth realizations' beyond what he calls  'abiding awakening' ie; If one is awake, and that is abiding,  he's 'seen through' the whole enchilada that was muddying things up previously.

He does though speak about a momentary awakening, an initial glimpse and then falling back asleep, getting sucked back into the dream, vs. abiding wakefulness.

This is why I found it kind of suprising then, that he seems to be suggesting one can be fully, abidingly awake, and still somehow be failing to live from the realization of Oneness.

I was referring ONLY to SR, not kensho-realizations, so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. SR is usually the end of active seeking, but it's not the end of what can be discovered. It's turtles all the way down, and there is no end to the turtles.

"Discovering" something new in terms of experience, and actually 'realizing' something new, are two different things.

And, as I was saying, from what I've recently read in Adya's "The End Of Your World", (new book)....he is very particular about his definition of SR vs. Experience. (fwiw, as am I).

From what I can garner, he sees the 'realization' component of awakening to be complete, "IF" SR is abiding vs. something  that comes and goes. Once SR is abiding, complete,  I don't think he sees that there is anything actually "TO" realize.

That's also how I see it; Truly awakening means that you have seen through the false: Separation. And that realization, (if it's complete, abiding, was not a mere glimpse that disappears and then once again is seen) and it encompasses many other lesser realizations within it.

If the seeing through of separation is complete, it encompasses every realization (the seeing through of falsity) necessary to 'be free.' The idea that there are MORE realizations to come after that, I just don't jibe with.

That said, experience will continue to morph and change, as it does,  and will indeed, be reflective of the absence of identification with being separate and ALL that that entails.

edit: That said about Adya's new book; I been kinda 'leafing' thru, I could be wrong about that. I do find him to most times state things perfectly, buy a few things he says....I would say it differently.

[Reefs]

Oct 19, 2018 12:37:49 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Oct 19, 2018 10:42:49 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Both kensho and satori are oneness realizations.

I agree, but kensho rarely gets rid of the idea that whatever happened happened to a person. Only satori does that. Apparently there are a few people (the Buddha, Paul Sommers, etc) who get both in one blast, but that seems to be pretty rare.

You can put me into the one blast group. So I can't really tell. And the only reason I am able to talk about kensho so clearly in comparison to satori is because it kept happening post SR. But since self-hood had already been seen thru, there wasn't anything new realized, it was more like a reminder, so to speak. So I never felt it worth mentioning. I actually used to take it for granted that it all happens in one blast, that's how I read it in the books and that's how it happened here. Obviously that's no necessarily so. That's why I didn't really pick up on your distinction between the two realizations in the early days, even though I always could relate. Now I clearly see the usefulness in telling apart the two different realizations. But I think we got a bit carried away with this focus on the distinctions recently, after all both realizations belong together. I see them as complementary realizations. Both are necessary for a more thorough, more complete understanding of reality. This doesn't mean that this is the end of the road though. But having only a reference for one or the other realization obviously leads to gross misunderstandings about the actual nature of reality.

[Reefs]

Okay, I'll quote a bit more from Adya's book. Here he describes his awakening, which - if I leave out the woo-woo parts - is almost identical to my own story. Adya describes it very well and he makes the exact same points I have been trying to get across all along:

Sitting there on one of those particular mornings, two things happened, one after another, and they seemed very paradoxical. The first one was a spontaneous seeing that everything was one. For me that manifested as hearing a birdcall, a chirp, in the front yard, and from somewhere inside me the question arose, “What is it that hears the sound?” I had never asked this question before. I suddenly realized I was as much the sound and the bird as the one hearing the bird, that the hearing and sound and bird were all manifestations of one thing. I cannot say what that one thing is, except to say one thing.

I opened my eyes, and I found the same thing was happening in the room—the wall and the one seeing the wall were the same thing. I thought that was very strange, and I realized that the one thinking this was another manifestation of that. I got up and began to move around the house looking for something that wasn’t part of the One. But everything was a reflection of that One thing. Everything was the divine. I wandered into the living room. In the middle of a step, consciousness, or awareness, suddenly left everything, whether it was a physical thing or body thing or world thing.

All of a sudden, consciousness was unconfined to the form and existed independently. It was no longer defining itself by any form, whether that form was a body, a mind, a lifetime, a single thought, or a memory. I saw this, but I almost couldn’t believe it. But it couldn’t be denied either. Even though I am using the word “I,” there was no “I,” only the One.

I didn’t tell my teacher anything about the experience for about three months because it seemed pointless. Why would anyone need to know this? I felt no need to tell anyone or be congratulated. It seemed totally sufficient in and of itself. It was only later that I learned that my experience corresponded to what my teacher had been talking about all along. I realized that this awakening was what all the teachings were about. In a very real way, that experience, which continues and is still the same today, is the foundation of everything I talk about.

With that first step, when I realized that what was looking through my eyes and senses was awakeness or spirit rather than conditioning or memory, I saw that the same spirit was actually looking through all the other pairs of eyes. It didn’t matter if it was looking through other conditioning; it was the exact same thing. It was seeing itself everywhere, not only in the eyes, but also in the trees, the rocks, and the floor.

It is paradoxical that the more this spirit or consciousness starts to taste itself, not as a thought or idea or belief, but as just a simple presence of awakeness, the more this awakeness is reflected everywhere. The more we wake up out of bodies and minds and identities, the more we see that bodies and minds are actually just manifestations of that same spirit, that same presence. The more we realize that who we are is totally outside of time, outside of the world, and outside of everything that happens, the more we realize that this same presence is the world—all that is happening and all that exists. It is like two sides of a coin.

What is so beautiful about awakening is that when you are no longer functioning through your conditioning, then the sense of “me” who was living that life is no longer there. Most people are familiar with the sense of a me living this life. But when this is seen through, the experience is that what really runs and operates this life is love, and this same love is in everybody all the time. When it is working its way through your personal stuff, it gets dissipated, but it is still there. Nobody owns this love. Everybody is essentially the manifestation of this love.

realization.org/p/adyashanti/my-awakening.html

In the book there is this additional paragraph which sums up what I just wrote in my previous post:

These two experiences happened together, one following within a few moments of the other. In the first, I became the Oneness of everything, and in the second I became the consciousness or spirit that totally woke up out of all identification, even out of Oneness. When the Oneness dropped away, there was still a basic awakeness, but it had two different aspects: I'm everything, and I'm absolutely nothing. This was the awakening, the realization of Self.

I hope that was clear enough. I've tried to explain it in a thousand ways over the years and I can't say it any more clearly. So if someone still can't relate to what's been pointed to here then I am going to assume a lack of actual reference.

What also really resonates in Adya's description is that he told no one because he didn't see the point in doing so. I did the same. And only later he realized that what happened is actually what all the teachers had been pointing to all along and what their teachings were actually about. Same here.

[lolly]

Oct 19, 2018 21:20:06 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

Oct 19, 2018 19:44:55 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I was referring ONLY to SR, not kensho-realizations, so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. SR is usually the end of active seeking, but it's not the end of what can be discovered. It's turtles all the way down, and there is no end to the turtles.

"Discovering" something new in terms of experience, and actually 'realizing' something new, are two different things.

And, as I was saying, from what I've recently read in Adya's "The End Of Your World", (new book)....he is very particular about his definition of SR vs. Experience. (fwiw, as am I).

From what I can garner, he sees the 'realization' component of awakening to be complete, "IF" SR is abiding vs. something  that comes and goes. Once SR is abiding, complete,  I don't think he sees that there is anything actually "TO" realize.

That's also how I see it; Truly awakening means that you have seen through the false: Separation. And that realization, (if it's complete, abiding, was not a mere glimpse that disappears and then once again is seen) and it encompasses many other lesser realizations within it.

If the seeing through of separation is complete, it encompasses every realization (the seeing through of falsity) necessary to 'be free.' The idea that there are MORE realizations to come after that, I just don't jibe with.

That said, experience will continue to morph and change, as it does,  and will indeed, be reflective of the absence of identification with being separate and ALL that that entails.

edit: That said about Adya's new book; I been kinda 'leafing' thru, I could be wrong about that. I do find him to most times state things perfectly, buy a few things he says....I would say it differently.

The way I look at it is, realisation in itself is not an experience, but a learning. Not learning which is aquired knowledge, but a learning that propagates psychological transformation. When the realisation occurs as, 'I see,' the fundamental worldview is altered.

[zendancer]

Oct 19, 2018 22:27:08 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Okay, I'll quote a bit more from Adya's book. Here he describes his awakening, which - if I leave out the woo-woo parts - is almost identical to my own story. Adya describes it very well and he makes the exact same points I have been trying to get across all along:

Sitting there on one of those particular mornings, two things happened, one after another, and they seemed very paradoxical. The first one was a spontaneous seeing that everything was one. For me that manifested as hearing a birdcall, a chirp, in the front yard, and from somewhere inside me the question arose, “What is it that hears the sound?” I had never asked this question before. I suddenly realized I was as much the sound and the bird as the one hearing the bird, that the hearing and sound and bird were all manifestations of one thing. I cannot say what that one thing is, except to say one thing.

I opened my eyes, and I found the same thing was happening in the room—the wall and the one seeing the wall were the same thing. I thought that was very strange, and I realized that the one thinking this was another manifestation of that. I got up and began to move around the house looking for something that wasn’t part of the One. But everything was a reflection of that One thing. Everything was the divine. I wandered into the living room. In the middle of a step, consciousness, or awareness, suddenly left everything, whether it was a physical thing or body thing or world thing.

All of a sudden, consciousness was unconfined to the form and existed independently. It was no longer defining itself by any form, whether that form was a body, a mind, a lifetime, a single thought, or a memory. I saw this, but I almost couldn’t believe it. But it couldn’t be denied either. Even though I am using the word “I,” there was no “I,” only the One.

I didn’t tell my teacher anything about the experience for about three months because it seemed pointless. Why would anyone need to know this? I felt no need to tell anyone or be congratulated. It seemed totally sufficient in and of itself. It was only later that I learned that my experience corresponded to what my teacher had been talking about all along. I realized that this awakening was what all the teachings were about. In a very real way, that experience, which continues and is still the same today, is the foundation of everything I talk about.

With that first step, when I realized that what was looking through my eyes and senses was awakeness or spirit rather than conditioning or memory, I saw that the same spirit was actually looking through all the other pairs of eyes. It didn’t matter if it was looking through other conditioning; it was the exact same thing. It was seeing itself everywhere, not only in the eyes, but also in the trees, the rocks, and the floor.

It is paradoxical that the more this spirit or consciousness starts to taste itself, not as a thought or idea or belief, but as just a simple presence of awakeness, the more this awakeness is reflected everywhere. The more we wake up out of bodies and minds and identities, the more we see that bodies and minds are actually just manifestations of that same spirit, that same presence. The more we realize that who we are is totally outside of time, outside of the world, and outside of everything that happens, the more we realize that this same presence is the world—all that is happening and all that exists. It is like two sides of a coin.

What is so beautiful about awakening is that when you are no longer functioning through your conditioning, then the sense of “me” who was living that life is no longer there. Most people are familiar with the sense of a me living this life. But when this is seen through, the experience is that what really runs and operates this life is love, and this same love is in everybody all the time. When it is working its way through your personal stuff, it gets dissipated, but it is still there. Nobody owns this love. Everybody is essentially the manifestation of this love.

realization.org/p/adyashanti/my-awakening.html

In the book there is this additional paragraph which sums up what I just wrote in my previous post:

These two experiences happened together, one following within a few moments of the other. In the first, I became the Oneness of everything, and in the second I became the consciousness or spirit that totally woke up out of all identification, even out of Oneness. When the Oneness dropped away, there was still a basic awakeness, but it had two different aspects: I'm everything, and I'm absolutely nothing. This was the awakening, the realization of Self.

I hope that was clear enough. I've tried to explain it in a thousand ways over the years and I can't say it any more clearly. So if someone still can't relate to what's been pointed to here then I am going to assume a lack of actual reference.

What also really resonates in Adya's description is that he told no one because he didn't see the point in doing so. I did the same. And only later he realized that what happened is actually what all the teachers had been pointing to all along and what their teachings were actually about. Same here.

Yes, and there are other clarifying realizations that can occur post SR. Some degree of ideation can remain even though the personal sense of selfhood has clearly been discovered as false and oneness is known to be the case. Tozan's four ranks, and writings by other sages, have to do with what can follow satori that deepens what has already been realized.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2018 23:20:58 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Oct 19, 2018 22:27:08 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Okay, I'll quote a bit more from Adya's book. Here he describes his awakening, which - if I leave out the woo-woo parts - is almost identical to my own story. Adya describes it very well and he makes the exact same points I have been trying to get across all along:

In the book there is this additional paragraph which sums up what I just wrote in my previous post:

I hope that was clear enough. I've tried to explain it in a thousand ways over the years and I can't say it any more clearly. So if someone still can't relate to what's been pointed to here then I am going to assume a lack of actual reference.

What also really resonates in Adya's description is that he told no one because he didn't see the point in doing so. I did the same. And only later he realized that what happened is actually what all the teachers had been pointing to all along and what their teachings were actually about. Same here.

Yes, and there are other clarifying realizations that can occur post SR. Some degree of ideation can remain even though the personal sense of selfhood has clearly been discovered as false and oneness is known to be the case. Tozan's four ranks, and writings by other sages, have to do with what can follow satori that deepens what has already been realized.

Of course post SR, ideation remains. Engagement with experience pretty much demands it, at least to some degree. No problem with ideation. However, it's important to see ideation for what it is, and 'realization' for what it is.

Interesting, that quote from Adya,  'cause in his latest book, I'm pretty sure he would have called what he designated there to be 'realized' to actually only be 'a profound mystical experiece.'

"Another one of the great misunderstandings about awakening or enlightenment, is that it is some sort of mystical experience. We might expect an experience akin to union with God: a merging with the environment or a dissolving into the ocean. this is not the case. Nor is awakening the same as suddenly having a tremendous amount of cosmic insight--insight into the way the whole univere is construced, insight into the inner working of what we think is reality.

I could go on and on, but essentially what is important to realize is that spiritual awakening is very different from having a mystical experience. " Adyashanti

Anyway, from what is stated in the OP, he obviously sees himself as someone who still has 'room to grow' and perhaps see things differently than how he saw them, sees them now. In the past 2-3 years, I've had some shifts in my own seeing....not the overall realization of self, but some deeper nuances into what that actually means in terms of clarity in  all facets of experience. You just never know. 

[tenka]

Oct 19, 2018 8:51:33 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Oct 19, 2018 2:51:12 GMT -5 tenka said:

.. What does this actual reflect though?

What is realized?

This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol ..

If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that 

This to me is not living what was supposedly realized .

I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded .

Everyone on the forum lives as though ________________ is tangible and physical, so no one steps out in front of a bus, but people who think of ____________________as an appearance, only, would say that this is all just part of the dream.

.. Why do you think that peeps live as though this world is physical and yet say that this physicalness is just an empty appearance with no real substance .

Reefs has suggested as have I that the empty / dream experience that can't be trusted as Truthy and such likes is not a realization at all . What are your thoughts?

Reefs followed my lead on this in regards to kindness and I don't think there has been any takers as yet .

Why be kind to an appearance in regards to saying what one truly believes if one believes the appearance to be just that .

[tenka]

Oct 19, 2018 8:51:33 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Oct 19, 2018 2:51:12 GMT -5 tenka said:

.. What does this actual reflect though?

What is realized?

This has been my point made since the invention of the wheel lol ..

If a peep supposedly realizes there is no-one here, all is a dream blah blah blah, then to express, act and do what you realize must then reflect this, but as far as I can tell by what I have seen in these instances has been oh, it's not real I might as well enjoy the dream for what it is .. butt I am still not going to walk in front of a bus because I am not drawn to do that 

This to me is not living what was supposedly realized .

I have also said that what is realized is a mental interpretation so one can only really live what one has concluded .

In 1984, after 5 months of meditation and several nights spent in NS, this body/mind had a kensho experience/realization that radically changed its understanding of reality and its way of being. It was as if a switch in the brain flipped from one neural pathway to totally different neural pathway. For two days the body/mind lived in a totally alive and dynamic world. It wanted nothing for itself (I actually tried to give away everything my wife and I owned, but my actions freaked out everyone around me--haha). I was only interested in helping other people. What we call "ego" vanished, and all kinds of amazing things happened.

.. haha, good for you, but this still proves a point that even though you were not yourself so to speak you still had the understanding that what you had to give away would help other people .

Mother teresa was selfless in her actions but still retained an understanding that what she was doing had real value .

One can only do this when there is a self identified aspect in expression, it's still ego I would say, but ego to some involves more of a self importance attachment than anything else .

This isn't my point in making tbh it's more to do with having values still in regards to living life post realization, it's not a reflection of empty appearances that pertain to not being of any real substance .

Even the masters that teach others, the intensity at times when niz goes into a rage at his students is because he see's his students as something that will benefit from his teachings rather than just speaking to an empty dream character appearance .

These are the things that don't make sense to me, why bother to teach a dream character if one really believes that is what they are .

There is something not quite right with the teachers that entertain these philosophies but carry on as if the opposite is the reality .

[Reefs]

Oct 19, 2018 22:55:20 GMT -5 lolly said:

Oct 19, 2018 21:20:06 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

"Discovering" something new in terms of experience, and actually 'realizing' something new, are two different things.

And, as I was saying, from what I've recently read in Adya's "The End Of Your World", (new book)....he is very particular about his definition of SR vs. Experience. (fwiw, as am I).

From what I can garner, he sees the 'realization' component of awakening to be complete, "IF" SR is abiding vs. something  that comes and goes. Once SR is abiding, complete,  I don't think he sees that there is anything actually "TO" realize.

That's also how I see it; Truly awakening means that you have seen through the false: Separation. And that realization, (if it's complete, abiding, was not a mere glimpse that disappears and then once again is seen) and it encompasses many other lesser realizations within it.

If the seeing through of separation is complete, it encompasses every realization (the seeing through of falsity) necessary to 'be free.' The idea that there are MORE realizations to come after that, I just don't jibe with.

That said, experience will continue to morph and change, as it does,  and will indeed, be reflective of the absence of identification with being separate and ALL that that entails.

edit: That said about Adya's new book; I been kinda 'leafing' thru, I could be wrong about that. I do find him to most times state things perfectly, buy a few things he says....I would say it differently.

The way I look at it is, realisation in itself is not an experience, but a learning. Not learning which is aquired knowledge, but a learning that propagates psychological transformation. When the realisation occurs as, 'I see,' the fundamental worldview is altered.

I think that's what ZD was getting at when he was talking about an intellectual shift. It's basically the integration process.

[Reefs]

Oct 20, 2018 0:33:49 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

Oct 19, 2018 23:20:58 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Yes, and there are other clarifying realizations that can occur post SR. Some degree of ideation can remain even though the personal sense of selfhood has clearly been discovered as false and oneness is known to be the case. Tozan's four ranks, and writings by other sages, have to do with what can follow satori that deepens what has already been realized.

Of course post SR, ideation remains. Engagement with experience pretty much demands it, at least to some degree. No problem with ideation. However, it's important to see ideation for what it is, and 'realization' for what it is.

Interesting, that quote from Adya,  'cause in his latest book, I'm pretty sure he would have called what he designated there to be 'realized' to actually only be 'a profound mystical experiece.'

"Another one of the great misunderstandings about awakening or enlightenment, is that it is some sort of mystical experience. We might expect an experience akin to union with God: a merging with the environment or a dissolving into the ocean. this is not the case. Nor is awakening the same as suddenly having a tremendous amount of cosmic insight--insight into the way the whole univere is construced, insight into the inner working of what we think is reality.

I could go on and on, but essentially what is important to realize is that spiritual awakening is very different from having a mystical experience. " Adyashanti

Anyway, from what is stated in the OP, he obviously sees himself as someone who still has 'room to grow' and perhaps see things differently than how he saw them, sees them now. In the past 2-3 years, I've had some shifts in my own seeing....not the overall realization of self, but some deeper nuances into what that actually means in terms of clarity in  all facets of experience. You just never know. 

Instead of re-posting that Adya quote another hundred times it would be better to actually look at what has been said. Because then you would see that we are still talking past each other.

[Reefs]

Oct 20, 2018 4:33:54 GMT -5 tenka said:

Oct 19, 2018 8:51:33 GMT -5 zendancer said:

In 1984, after 5 months of meditation and several nights spent in NS, this body/mind had a kensho experience/realization that radically changed its understanding of reality and its way of being. It was as if a switch in the brain flipped from one neural pathway to totally different neural pathway. For two days the body/mind lived in a totally alive and dynamic world. It wanted nothing for itself (I actually tried to give away everything my wife and I owned, but my actions freaked out everyone around me--haha). I was only interested in helping other people. What we call "ego" vanished, and all kinds of amazing things happened.

.. haha, good for you, but this still proves a point that even though you were not yourself so to speak you still had the understanding that what you had to give away would help other people .

Mother teresa was selfless in her actions but still retained an understanding that what she was doing had real value .

One can only do this when there is a self identified aspect in expression, it's still ego I would say, but ego to some involves more of a self importance attachment than anything else .

This isn't my point in making tbh it's more to do with having values still in regards to living life post realization, it's not a reflection of empty appearances that pertain to not being of any real substance .

Even the masters that teach others, the intensity at times when niz goes into a rage at his students is because he see's his students as something that will benefit from his teachings rather than just speaking to an empty dream character appearance .

These are the things that don't make sense to me, why bother to teach a dream character if one really believes that is what they are .

There is something not quite right with the teachers that entertain these philosophies but carry on as if the opposite is the reality .

Mother Theresa very likely was just another faker. In her letters to a priest she admitted that most of the time she felt godforsaken. The outward hyperactivity probably just was a coping mechanism. Osho called her a charlatan and suggested once that it was time for her to jump into a lake. I've also heard some reports from western doctors who observed the situation at her hospitals which they called atrocious. So lack of self-esteem or self-hate shouldn't be mistaken for selflessness.

[lolly]

Oct 20, 2018 11:09:03 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Oct 19, 2018 22:55:20 GMT -5 lolly said:

The way I look at it is, realisation in itself is not an experience, but a learning. Not learning which is aquired knowledge, but a learning that propagates psychological transformation. When the realisation occurs as, 'I see,' the fundamental worldview is altered.

I think that's what ZD was getting at when he was talking about an intellectual shift. It's basically the integration process.

I had mentioned to ZD that there is a shift, and realisation (I call 'insight') is like deeper wisdom or subtler understanding. I'm not sure how that relates to integration, but what I think of as integration is part and parcel of it.

[tenka]

Oct 20, 2018 11:28:55 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Oct 20, 2018 4:33:54 GMT -5 tenka said:

.. haha, good for you, but this still proves a point that even though you were not yourself so to speak you still had the understanding that what you had to give away would help other people .

Mother teresa was selfless in her actions but still retained an understanding that what she was doing had real value .

One can only do this when there is a self identified aspect in expression, it's still ego I would say, but ego to some involves more of a self importance attachment than anything else .

This isn't my point in making tbh it's more to do with having values still in regards to living life post realization, it's not a reflection of empty appearances that pertain to not being of any real substance .

Even the masters that teach others, the intensity at times when niz goes into a rage at his students is because he see's his students as something that will benefit from his teachings rather than just speaking to an empty dream character appearance .

These are the things that don't make sense to me, why bother to teach a dream character if one really believes that is what they are .

There is something not quite right with the teachers that entertain these philosophies but carry on as if the opposite is the reality .

Mother Theresa very likely was just another faker. In her letters to a priest she admitted that most of the time she felt godforsaken. The outward hyperactivity probably just was a coping mechanism. Osho called her a charlatan and suggested once that it was time for her to jump into a lake. I've also heard some reports from western doctors who observed the situation at her hospitals which they called atrocious. So lack of self-esteem or self-hate shouldn't be mistaken for selflessness.

Who knows, but the point is that selfless peeps still find value in helping others . Master teachers find value in helping others . If there is the supposed realization that peeps are empty of truth and are not of any real substance then no-one would retain the urge to help and teach others .

If they really believed that appearances were only that they would not bother to help or teach ..

What would be the point . It would be like trying to teach your shadow to box .

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2018 23:16:23 GMT -5 laughter said:

It's an impassioned and profound pointing, but he both calls for people to wake up and challenges them to deepen into that awakening after. It works, it's fine, but if someone deepens into a unrealized life thinking that the search is over, they've missed an opportunity.

Ok, there's at least two ways to interpret that:

1) thinking you're SR when you're not, in which case your point might be valid

2) someone who steps off the spiritual treadmill, and you're suggesting they should get back on