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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2015 9:01:42 GMT -5
Tenka: "Not coming out of SR" means that SR informs mind, and thereafter life continues as before but without the idea that one is a volitional entity inside a body looking at an outside world. Prior to SR, most seekers have pursued some sort of practice that cuts off thoughts, or reduces thoughts, or investigates thoughts. Niz practiced staying in the I AM; most Zen Masters practiced shikan taza or other meditative techniques; the Buddha claims that he meditated and contemplated certain specific existential questions, this body/mind practiced shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, etc. After SR, there is no longer any need to practice anything, or shun thinking, because one no longer imagines that s/he is a person who needs to attain anything that is not already present. The realization frees a body/mind from the idea that one is an entity separate from the whole of reality. The realization that we label "SR" is an insight that what we are is infinite and includes everything. This insight is not "of the mind" because it is a direct seeing that the mind has been projecting a false idea. We realize that what we are includes mind, but is a million times vaster and more intelligent than mind. We realize that we were always THAT even when we were under the illusion of being a person. It is like finding one's true home, and it leads to a kind of internal relaxation and general collapse of self-referential patterns of thinking. We become free from the search for understanding, because the realization has shown mind that its ideas about personhood were false. We become free, and we know that we are free. After SR, we can talk ABOUT SR because the realization has vastly expanded the mind's understanding. If we didn't know it beforehand, after SR, we realize that what we ARE--the totality of "what is"-- is the real do-er behind every action. This means that if this body/mind lifts its hand, it is the cosmos that is lifting the hand because there is no separateness. The body/mind and the cosmos are one. The same cosmos that is moving blood cells through the body, growing teeth or hair, generating thoughts in the intellect, or causing galaxies to collide, is the same cosmos that is moving the body as it walks and talks and breathes. After SR, one sees that there is no person who comes or goes, no boundaries of any kind (other than imaginary), and no inner or outer. This is why Adyashanti tells people, "relax and be as you are." Who we are is already free, unified, infinite, and at peace. Who we THINK we are is not. There are many people, like Tolle, who were deeply suffering over many issues for many years, but SR automatically ended their suffering and freed them from all of the ideas that were causing their suffering. Just for fun, google "buddhaatthegaspump" and listen to a few of the stories. It may help clear up any confusion you feel concerning these issues, and it may help put your own experiences and realizations into a broader perspective. Best wishes. Z.D. So there is a transition that occurs from no mind to mind, because at one point there is the realization beyond mind to then there being the awareness of mind . I have called that integrating what is realized beyond to what one is in experience of within mind via the mind-body . I have put this across many times that beyond mind there is no point of perception had and within mind there is a point of perception had whether or not one associates that to S.R. or not . As also said one cannot be of the beyond mind realization and be aware of the mind-body experience at the same time . One has to come out of the realization beyond mind and carry on living in experience of the mind-body with Self realization in toe . The totality of beyond mind S.R. cannot be maintained / emulated through a single point of perception of a mind-body . In regards to Tolle we have a different understanding of how things came about regarding his S.R. and even though he may not relate to a personal identity he carries on regardless doing things that relates to what he is that is within association to wealth and security and such likes . thanks for the "buddhaatthegaspump" link . Well, there is a transition that occurs as a result of seeing through the illusion of selfhood. Various self-referential thought patterns cease because it is seen that there is no person at the center of what is happening, so past thought patterns related to a personal self just fall away. Whatever is happening in the present moment attains even more importance than it did prior to SR because the past and future for a personal self is seen to be largely imaginary and therefore unimportant. One's attention becomes focused upon doing whatever has to be done, and then doing the next thing that has to be done. I don't think of this as an integrative process as much as a falling away of what was imaginary. Some writers have described life after SR as being one of "no mind." By this they mean that thoughts are no longer dominant, and life is lived directly rather than reflectively. SR does not need to be maintained; it is a one-time doorway. One never forgets what was seen in that single moment of seeing. On one side of the doorway there is a personal self with all of its aspirations, goals, ideas, etc. On the other side of the doorway the idea of being a volitional person in the old sense is simply gone. One knows that the Infinite is all there is. There are many people, like Tolle, who never had to work through any issues. All of their suffering, and all of their ideas about being a person who was suffering, instantly disappeared when SR occurred. One moment there was deep suffering, and the next moment there was freedom. It's unusual, but it happens. From your comment about Tolle's wealth, security, etc, it is obvious that you have various ideas about this aspect of SR. I can assure you that material wealth or the lack thereof has nothing to do with SR. One body/mind attaining SR may remain poor, and another may become rich, and both of them will see the situation as a logical unfolding of reality that has nothing to do with realization. The cosmos does what it does, and any thoughts ABOUT what it does are best looked at without judgment or expectation. Becoming free of the intellect is a step beyond SR, and this is why I often say, "Don't stop too soon."
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Post by tenka on Jul 1, 2015 9:06:24 GMT -5
Thanks for you thoughts Z.D. A few things just to clarify . When you mention the body has a distinct sense of coolness ... whom feels this? Whom notices this . My realization there was no universe, no mind, no association .. I wouldn't of known if my body was cool or hot .. It didn't exist at the point of realization . When you and satch pointed me towards Samadhi I looked into what peeps said about their experiences of it and much of it I couldn't compare to my own, there were a few similarities of one particular teacher . When you said there was no light and no darkness and only empty awareness can you add anymore to that .. My understanding is that what is perceived as light and dark is of the mind, and that is why when peeps that I read about regarding Samadhi relate to light and all that jazz then it isn't beyond mind . The darkness of my realization was not the darkness of the mind, there is no perceiving of darkness there is just the absence of mind if you get me . One last thing when you speak of a sense of selfhood returning after Samadhi what do you mean? Are you suggesting that one returns to the same sense of self had prior to Samadhi or that one has a completely different sense of self after Samadhi . This is where I think there can be a crossover of sorts had in relation to S.R. because if one has changed completely how they relate to themselves in terms of what they are after a realization beyond mind then some peeps would say that is because your have S.R. If you are saying that after Samadhi one returns to a sense of selfhood that was similar to how they perceived themselves prior to Samadhi then there is a clear distinction made between Samadhi and S.R. I mean if we speak of niz and Tolle as being S.R. then Tolle is carrying on cashing his cheques and getting involved in marketing himself and niz just carried on in some way and held public talks and smoked etc etc .. First, Samadhi is not SR. Samadhi is a state of mind--an experience--that lasts for a limited period of time. The body/mind goes into that state and comes out of that state. Prior to SR, one has a sense of personal selfhood, and that sense of selfhood is present both before and after experiencing Samadhi. After SR, the personal sense of selfhood and all of the past thoughts associated with that sense, are significantly absent, so entering and exiting Samadhi is seen from a far more impersonal perspective; it is just something that a meditating body/mind falls into and out of. Like you, for this body/mind there was never any perceivable darkness or lightness in Samadhi--just an absence of mind--and it is impossible to describe in words. After SR, Niz kept smoking his cigarettes and talking to seekers. Tolle's case was a bit different. He fell into a cosmic consciousness state of mind that lasted a long time. He didn't know what had happened to him until later. Eventually he had various realizations that informed mind about what had happened, and after he learned enough, he began talking with seekers. Life continues after SR but without an attachment to the idea that the body/mind is inhabited and animated by a personal self. You asked who feels the coolness or numbness upon entering deep Samadhi? The body does. Prior to SR one would say, "I felt coolness upon entering Samadhi." After SR, one would say, "There is a feeling of coolness upon entering Samadhi." One statement is personal, and the other statement is impersonal. Butt you said .. No, Samadhi and CC experiences are not of the mind. Mind in the ordinary sense is absent. In deep Samadhi, for example, there is pure awareness with no content whatsoever. In both Samadhi and CC experiences the sense of selfhood is absent. I did ask you what you mean't regarding 'mind in the ordinary sense is absent' . I wasn't sure what ordinary mind is, I just relate to mind or beyond mind . I can't recall off hand if you explained that or not, so at present I am a tad confused by what you said . In regards to being S.R. and creating for one's self a fortune of sorts, why would one do that? why would one do that if there is no association to a self had that would benefit from it in some way . Why would one be swayed by the mind body cravings and desires if one didn't associate what they are with them through the mind-body association . Sounds like to me that certain mind sets and conditionings are still present after S.R. for one to entertain carrying them on . It sounds as if the only distinction that carries any weight with S.R. is the realization carried through that what we are is not the person, and I would say that if a peep had a realization beyond the personal touch in some kind of Samadhi realization then that peeps isn't going to revert back to thinking they are the person after realizing that they are not . Maybe that happens though .. Seems a bit odd that one would revert back to anything after realizating something different .
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Post by tenka on Jul 1, 2015 9:31:08 GMT -5
Z.D. So there is a transition that occurs from no mind to mind, because at one point there is the realization beyond mind to then there being the awareness of mind . I have called that integrating what is realized beyond to what one is in experience of within mind via the mind-body . I have put this across many times that beyond mind there is no point of perception had and within mind there is a point of perception had whether or not one associates that to S.R. or not . As also said one cannot be of the beyond mind realization and be aware of the mind-body experience at the same time . One has to come out of the realization beyond mind and carry on living in experience of the mind-body with Self realization in toe . The totality of beyond mind S.R. cannot be maintained / emulated through a single point of perception of a mind-body . In regards to Tolle we have a different understanding of how things came about regarding his S.R. and even though he may not relate to a personal identity he carries on regardless doing things that relates to what he is that is within association to wealth and security and such likes . thanks for the "buddhaatthegaspump" link . Well, there is a transition that occurs as a result of seeing through the illusion of selfhood. Various self-referential thought patterns cease because it is seen that there is no person at the center of what is happening, so past thought patterns related to a personal self just fall away. Whatever is happening in the present moment attains even more importance than it did prior to SR because the past and future for a personal self is seen to be largely imaginary and therefore unimportant. One's attention becomes focused upon doing whatever has to be done, and then doing the next thing that has to be done. I don't think of this as an integrative process as much as a falling away of what was imaginary. Some writers have described life after SR as being one of "no mind." By this they mean that thoughts are no longer dominant, and life is lived directly rather reflectively. SR does not need to be maintained; it is a one-time doorway. One never forgets what was seen in that single moment of seeing. On one side of the doorway there is a personal self with all of its aspirations, goals, ideas, etc. On the other side of the doorway the idea of being a volitional person in the old sense is simply gone. One knows that the Infinite is all there is. There are many people, like Tolle, who never had to work through any issues. All of their suffering, and all of their ideas about being a person who was suffering, instantly disappeared when SR occurred. One moment there was deep suffering, and the next moment there was freedom. It's unusual, but it happens. From your comment about Tolle's wealth, security, etc, it is obvious that you have various ideas about this aspect of SR. I can assure you that material wealth or the lack thereof has nothing to do with SR. One body/mind attaining SR may remain poor, and another may become rich, and both of them will see the situation as a logical unfolding of reality that has nothing to do with realization. The cosmos does what it does, and any thoughts ABOUT what it does are best looked at without judgment or expectation. Becoming free of the intellect is a step beyond SR, and this is why I often say, "Don't stop too soon." The transition you speak of doesn't encompass there being a point of perception had of the mind to then not, to then being of a point of perception of the mind again and this is key to what I am speaking of . One cannot realize what you are beyond mind in totality and then be of the mind perceiving through a mind-body experience . In this respect one is coming out of the totality of the realization . I agree that 'The cosmos does what it does' after S.R. butt I would say that there is still association had with what you are and what one has attained or not attained whether it be one living in a penthouse or a mud hut or whether one is teetotal or one loves getting sloshed .. Maybe Tolle will go live in mud hut someday and give everything that he has earned away .. That would perhaps suggest that he doesn't hold any personal tenancies / preferences . (I have no issues by the way regarding Self realized peeps earning billions)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2015 9:37:58 GMT -5
Yes, ultimately, this is what E will say. But he will bring up context (or rather, not bring up context) and say that yes, matter exists. And if you point out the contradictions he will say, maybe I should explain context to you some time. So OToneH there is only consciousness and OTOH there are planets and suns and bodies. I have always said he wants to have his cake and eat it too. E likes to tease people. He and gopal went round and round for weeks about how the world works (According to your view, I can go to be bed in India and wake up on Mars tomorrow, gopal, more or less. And then E will say his world works perfectly normally, creation is perception). It would be nice to see a conversation between you and E on this. hi you made our conversation as fun. I believe you understand you thoroughly understand what is the meaning of appearance in consciousness and also you know outer world existence can't be known. So what makes you to oppose our view? You have known I am not going to advocate the idea of waking up in the moon, so what is the problem do you see in my view? Hey gopal, I have asked you 2 or 3 times, what good is your view? How does it help you in life? Your view is an explanation for how you see life operating. It's like back in the Middle Ages when the earth was the center of the universe. There were some screwy astronomical observations which had to be explained, Mercury and Venus moving backwards sometimes for instance. So they invented epicycles which explained the motion. But the simple explanation which Copernicus came up with is that the Sun is the center, not the earth. So a lot of stuff in your view is like inventing epicycles, but an explanation doesn't mean it's an accurate explanation. I can't argue with God/consciousness is controlling everything to make the world we see, I just have another view of how the universe operates. I will not argue with you just like I would not argue with a guy that maintained that epicycles explain all the heavenly bodies. From day one that you were here I tried to have a conversation with you, but you don't see that you are an "epicycle" guy.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2015 9:40:40 GMT -5
hi you made our conversation as fun. I believe you understand you thoroughly understand what is the meaning of appearance in consciousness and also you know outer world existence can't be known. So what makes you to oppose our view? You have known I am not going to advocate the idea of waking up in the moon, so what is the problem do you see in my view? You are detached from reality, living in your own mind-play as if those beliefs were real.. i see your view, and that is the issue, it's your 'view' of reaility, not the definition of reality or even a reasonable representation of it.. I'm reading in order, yes, that's precisely what I just said (without the rough edges :-( .
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2015 10:09:37 GMT -5
Well, yeah it is the mind that's reading and hearing it. You are just shifting mind identification to a greater 'mind transcended' identity, while Zendancer is claiming a collapse of identity entirely. Do you see the difference? Well, I'm not really claiming a collapse of ALL identity; only identity as an imaginary person. Non-conceptually knowing (gnosis) that I am THAT is different than thinking I am a person or thinking that personhood is an illusion. FWIW, Wren is correct. It is not the intellect that hears; it is THAT. The intellect, which is also THAT, imaginatively interprets what is heard, but this is sort of getting into splitting-hair territory. I think it's difficult to convey how one can have a memory of the events of the past personal life, but in a very real sense, one no longer is that person. It's like one is a character in the play of life, but doesn't know they are merely a character in the play. You have learned your part (as ego) so well that you forget you are playing a role. But then you "wake up", you still have to go to work next Monday to pay the bills, you are still married to the same woman, live in the same town, have the same friends, you're still in the same "play". So you keep acting the part even though you know you >aren't< that character. You are now an actor playing a part. (As an aside, maybe tenka is still tenka, not an " actor" playing tenka?)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2015 10:14:47 GMT -5
My apologies for misinterpreting your meaning. I still see an identity, an I-ness or identification link with Non-conceptual knowing that you are THAT. SR is not a realization of what you are, it is the collapse of identification, even with an identity as sublime as I AM THAT. From which: the experiencer wears identity like any other apparel, a useful accessory according to the situation.. Yes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 10:17:34 GMT -5
To be fair, this is something Tzu would agree with. Too bad an advaitaistaistaist said it. Tzu does agree, don't be so quick to judge.. i don't care who describes isness clearly.. .. .. .. .. Too often though, the "advaitaistaistaist" pollutes the clarity with beliefs about awareness/oneness/consciousness/duality/etc... failing the quietness.. Strictly speaking, by that measure, anything uttered is a fail. "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao." This is not exactly new news. Stillness, quietness, clarity.... these words also pollute and fail 'the queitness'. Do you agree?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2015 10:28:46 GMT -5
Do you think that I posed the hypothetical to show that practices lead to SR? To be clear, that's not why I posed the hypothetical. Practices can lead to SR, they can also lead to attachment to practices.. Practices are like eating a doughnut. self/ego is the doughnut. There is a hole in the center. Practices eat the hole until the doughnut is gone, and then the hole becomes the Whole. But there is still a mind/body present, with memory of the doughnut, but isn't the doughnut.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 11:50:56 GMT -5
Whether it's an effigy or not is besides the point. The point is whether there is any truth to what the effigy is pointing to. So like a bookie in Vegas it's odds taking time. What are the odds that a self referential thought about Self-Realization would have or not have arisen after years and 14,000 posts on this forum? On no, quite contaire mon frere -- the point that it's an effigy is all you need know, and here's why: Were you conscious of the fact that the effigy sets up a double bind for Reefs or is that fact just occurring to you now as you read this sentence? Are you self-realized? If your answer is yes, I say, congratulations! .. and only that. If your answer is no, then the effigy is based on your speculation, and if that's the case and you're sincerely interested in SR, what's the most profitable orientation toward such speculation? That's true but the fact is I'm not asking him if he thinks he is Self Realized, so it's irrelevant. I'm saying that that the odds are greater than 50/50 that the thought of being Self Realized has arisen in his mind and he has either identified with it or not. There is either some truth that he has or there isn't, I'm betting there is. Truth is truth irrespective of effigy or being able to grasp it.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2015 11:58:42 GMT -5
First, Samadhi is not SR. Samadhi is a state of mind--an experience--that lasts for a limited period of time. The body/mind goes into that state and comes out of that state. Prior to SR, one has a sense of personal selfhood, and that sense of selfhood is present both before and after experiencing Samadhi. After SR, the personal sense of selfhood and all of the past thoughts associated with that sense, are significantly absent, so entering and exiting Samadhi is seen from a far more impersonal perspective; it is just something that a meditating body/mind falls into and out of. Like you, for this body/mind there was never any perceivable darkness or lightness in Samadhi--just an absence of mind--and it is impossible to describe in words. After SR, Niz kept smoking his cigarettes and talking to seekers. Tolle's case was a bit different. He fell into a cosmic consciousness state of mind that lasted a long time. He didn't know what had happened to him until later. Eventually he had various realizations that informed mind about what had happened, and after he learned enough, he began talking with seekers. Life continues after SR but without an attachment to the idea that the body/mind is inhabited and animated by a personal self. You asked who feels the coolness or numbness upon entering deep Samadhi? The body does. Prior to SR one would say, "I felt coolness upon entering Samadhi." After SR, one would say, "There is a feeling of coolness upon entering Samadhi." One statement is personal, and the other statement is impersonal. Butt you said .. No, Samadhi and CC experiences are not of the mind. Mind in the ordinary sense is absent. In deep Samadhi, for example, there is pure awareness with no content whatsoever. In both Samadhi and CC experiences the sense of selfhood is absent. I did ask you what you mean't regarding 'mind in the ordinary sense is absent' . I wasn't sure what ordinary mind is, I just relate to mind or beyond mind . I can't recall off hand if you explained that or not, so at present I am a tad confused by what you said . In regards to being S.R. and creating for one's self a fortune of sorts, why would one do that? why would one do that if there is no association to a self had that would benefit from it in some way . Why would one be swayed by the mind body cravings and desires if one didn't associate what they are with them through the mind-body association . Sounds like to me that certain mind sets and conditionings are still present after S.R. for one to entertain carrying them on . It sounds as if the only distinction that carries any weight with S.R. is the realization carried through that what we are is not the person, and I would say that if a peep had a realization beyond the personal touch in some kind of Samadhi realization then that peeps isn't going to revert back to thinking they are the person after realizing that they are not . Maybe that happens though .. Seems a bit odd that one would revert back to anything after realizating something different . I associate the word "mind" with verbal discursive self-centered thinking and what is commonly called "the internal dialogue." During Samadhi there is no thinking, so that is why I said it is not of the mind--there is awareness but no content. During a CC experience selfhood is absent so there is no self-centered thinking. In fact, it is not known who or what is experiencing what is being experienced. Thoughts may appear, but it is not known who or what is thinking the thoughts; they just appear in emptiness. All kinds of strange things may happen during a CC experience that seem, in retrospect, as if the intellect was transcended or bypassed. It is as if the body/mind gets directly connected to some infinite power source that reveals all kinds of unusual things, and can reorganize existing thought structures. After a CC experience one may find that there are completely new understandings of various issues, and new ideas may appear that had never in the past been entertained. This is why I said that CC experiences are not of the mind. By mind, I am referring to the intellect and the usual reflective way that humans think about the world and their own existence. If you do not understand why the universe might remain poor after SR or become wealthy after SR, then I would suggest that you contemplate this issue. This question, alone, makes it clear that you have not had a particularly important realization about the nature of the cosmos. The answer to your question cannot be found through the intellect; it must be found at a deeper level of being. Simply bear this question in mind without thinking until the answer appears. You will probably be surprised by what you discover. FWIW, one does not revert back to anything after SR; one simply understands the cosmos in a totally different way than before.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2015 12:09:18 GMT -5
Well, there is a transition that occurs as a result of seeing through the illusion of selfhood. Various self-referential thought patterns cease because it is seen that there is no person at the center of what is happening, so past thought patterns related to a personal self just fall away. Whatever is happening in the present moment attains even more importance than it did prior to SR because the past and future for a personal self is seen to be largely imaginary and therefore unimportant. One's attention becomes focused upon doing whatever has to be done, and then doing the next thing that has to be done. I don't think of this as an integrative process as much as a falling away of what was imaginary. Some writers have described life after SR as being one of "no mind." By this they mean that thoughts are no longer dominant, and life is lived directly rather reflectively. SR does not need to be maintained; it is a one-time doorway. One never forgets what was seen in that single moment of seeing. On one side of the doorway there is a personal self with all of its aspirations, goals, ideas, etc. On the other side of the doorway the idea of being a volitional person in the old sense is simply gone. One knows that the Infinite is all there is. There are many people, like Tolle, who never had to work through any issues. All of their suffering, and all of their ideas about being a person who was suffering, instantly disappeared when SR occurred. One moment there was deep suffering, and the next moment there was freedom. It's unusual, but it happens. From your comment about Tolle's wealth, security, etc, it is obvious that you have various ideas about this aspect of SR. I can assure you that material wealth or the lack thereof has nothing to do with SR. One body/mind attaining SR may remain poor, and another may become rich, and both of them will see the situation as a logical unfolding of reality that has nothing to do with realization. The cosmos does what it does, and any thoughts ABOUT what it does are best looked at without judgment or expectation. Becoming free of the intellect is a step beyond SR, and this is why I often say, "Don't stop too soon." The transition you speak of doesn't encompass there being a point of perception had of the mind to then not, to then being of a point of perception of the mind again and this is key to what I am speaking of . One cannot realize what you are beyond mind in totality and then be of the mind perceiving through a mind-body experience . In this respect one is coming out of the totality of the realization . I agree that 'The cosmos does what it does' after S.R. butt I would say that there is still association had with what you are and what one has attained or not attained whether it be one living in a penthouse or a mud hut or whether one is teetotal or one loves getting sloshed .. Maybe Tolle will go live in mud hut someday and give everything that he has earned away .. That would perhaps suggest that he doesn't hold any personal tenancies / preferences . (I have no issues by the way regarding Self realized peeps earning billions) The first statement you made is simply false. It is possible to fully realize what you are and yet continue to perceive the world through an individuated perspective. The relative and the absolute are one and the same. The Infinite perceives Itself through every living creature. Humans, however, can realize what's going on (we could call it "SEEING THE BIG PICTURE") and know that they know. What will happen after SR is unknowable in advance. FWIW, Tolle recently said in an interview that he cares nothing about money, and that in the future the money accumulating in his accounts might be used to build a retreat facility or create an educational foundation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 12:38:56 GMT -5
The transition you speak of doesn't encompass there being a point of perception had of the mind to then not, to then being of a point of perception of the mind again and this is key to what I am speaking of . One cannot realize what you are beyond mind in totality and then be of the mind perceiving through a mind-body experience . In this respect one is coming out of the totality of the realization . I agree that 'The cosmos does what it does' after S.R. butt I would say that there is still association had with what you are and what one has attained or not attained whether it be one living in a penthouse or a mud hut or whether one is teetotal or one loves getting sloshed .. Maybe Tolle will go live in mud hut someday and give everything that he has earned away .. That would perhaps suggest that he doesn't hold any personal tenancies / preferences . (I have no issues by the way regarding Self realized peeps earning billions) The first statement you made is simply false. It is possible to fully realize what you are and yet continue to perceive the world through an individuated perspective. The relative and the absolute are one and the same. The Infinite perceives Itself through every living creature. Humans, however, can realize what's going on (we could call it "SEEING THE BIG PICTURE") and know that they know. What will happen after SR is unknowable in advance. FWIW, Tolle recently said in an interview that he cares nothing about money, and that in the future the money accumulating in his accounts might be used to build a retreat facility or create an educational foundation. Tenka is saying that if you go from SR back to a new and improved identity with an expanded understanding of the cosmos it is not SR. It is a mind with an expanded understanding of the cosmos. The collapse of identity doesn't result in a new expanded sense of I-am-ness, because there is no you in any objective form to identify with.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2015 12:40:01 GMT -5
He's always saying 'That's how you see it from your seeing of it' or some other such tautology, so I assume he does believe that Reefs believes what he says, but I don't think he's taking the next step, which is to acknowledge that one can justify nearly any type of behavior under the banner of truth. I'm not addressing the issue of whether or not what Reefs says is true, as we don't have to in order to see how behavior is justified. Sure, in various ways. When I respond to Tzu these days, I'm hardly ever talking to him, and I suspect the same is true for him. It actually would be a bit foolish for me to do so, given our history. I look forward to the day that you catch up on posts. I'm nearly over my interest in the subject matter at this point because it just goes back and forth with each side entrenched. The points you're making are valid. I just wish one day the three of you would also turn them on yourselves and see that what you accuse Tenka of is exactly what you're doing. You justify mocking under the banner of truth. You are dense to Tzu's points because of his constant harangues and you're dense to Tenka's points because of your judgments of him. You don't give two figs about his perspective. And you try to get to the bottom of what you see as egoic behavior, which is exactly what Tenka was trying to do. There's no problem with any of that except for the lack of seeing it in yourselves while constantly pointing it out in others. sdp likes twice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 12:41:49 GMT -5
Butt you said .. No, Samadhi and CC experiences are not of the mind. Mind in the ordinary sense is absent. In deep Samadhi, for example, there is pure awareness with no content whatsoever. In both Samadhi and CC experiences the sense of selfhood is absent. I did ask you what you mean't regarding 'mind in the ordinary sense is absent' . I wasn't sure what ordinary mind is, I just relate to mind or beyond mind . I can't recall off hand if you explained that or not, so at present I am a tad confused by what you said . In regards to being S.R. and creating for one's self a fortune of sorts, why would one do that? why would one do that if there is no association to a self had that would benefit from it in some way . Why would one be swayed by the mind body cravings and desires if one didn't associate what they are with them through the mind-body association . Sounds like to me that certain mind sets and conditionings are still present after S.R. for one to entertain carrying them on . It sounds as if the only distinction that carries any weight with S.R. is the realization carried through that what we are is not the person, and I would say that if a peep had a realization beyond the personal touch in some kind of Samadhi realization then that peeps isn't going to revert back to thinking they are the person after realizing that they are not . Maybe that happens though .. Seems a bit odd that one would revert back to anything after realizating something different . I associate the word "mind" with verbal discursive self-centered thinking and what is commonly called "the internal dialogue." During Samadhi there is no thinking, so that is why I said it is not of the mind--there is awareness but no content. During a CC experience selfhood is absent so there is no self-centered thinking. In fact, it is not known who or what is experiencing what is being experienced. Thoughts may appear, but it is not known who or what is thinking the thoughts; they just appear in emptiness. All kinds of strange things may happen during a CC experience that seem, in retrospect, as if the intellect was transcended or bypassed. It is as if the body/mind gets directly connected to some infinite power source that reveals all kinds of unusual things, and can reorganize existing thought structures. After a CC experience one may find that there are completely new understandings of various issues, and new ideas may appear that had never in the past been entertained. This is why I said that CC experiences are not of the mind. By mind, I am referring to the intellect and the usual reflective way that humans think about the world and their own existence. If you do not understand why the universe might remain poor after SR or become wealthy after SR, then I would suggest that you contemplate this issue. This question, alone, makes it clear that you have not had a particularly important realization about the nature of the cosmos. The answer to your question cannot be found through the intellect; it must be found at a deeper level of being. Simply bear this question in mind without thinking until the answer appears. You will probably be surprised by what you discover. FWIW, one does not revert back to anything after SR; one simply understands the cosmos in a totally different way than before. Actually you are speaking in a different way,but I am pretty sure you realized that you are not the doer but infinite, this realization frees you from trying to do anything rather you are allowing the infinite to do everything.
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