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Post by tenka on Jul 1, 2015 4:44:47 GMT -5
My impression from the last month of posts is that past-life/healing was part of the shedding process. Pre SR. If he said otherwise before that, I wouldn't know. My initial impression was that his past-life healing process either led to SR or was somehow directly involved with SR. Tenka will have to clarify this issue when he gets a chance. There is a right time to S.R. so there requires the right / ripe conditions . What comes about and what surfaces during self enquiry is what is required to heal / clear / resolve / forgive in order to allow the right moment to happen that makes S.R. possible . It matters not if what arises is associated with a past life experience or present day, for what you are that is in experience of the mind-body just becomes aware of what is happening and what thoughts arise . So self enquiry and working through what arises is indirectly and directly associated with S.R. because you can't as they say have one without the other . I have spoken about different levels of suffering leading to S.R. and sufferings relating to self issues that require healing and sufferings had that are just catalysts for S.R that require no healing work per se . Quinn was correct in saying 'past-life/healing was part of the shedding process' because without resolving such issues one cannot realize what they are and you cannot realize what you are when you have something in mind that requires healing . What requires healing only you know, butt you won't always consciously know what that is until it arises and is healed . That is the beauty of self enquiry and it is to look within and beyond one's conscious mind . It is a purifying process ..
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2015 4:47:26 GMT -5
Bullsh!t.. Links or giraffe burgers... you've lost it, dood.. ok, that might have been confusing for you so I'll rephrase: What is a demonstrable objective fact is that you kept on initiating dialog with me for months even though I refrained from initiating dialog with you or directly referring to you. Your "sniper" remark was, in contrast, your subjective opinion and based on fantasy. Yes, you've been knocking on my door for months now. Hello Tzu', c'mon in, stay awhile. You've been indirectly sniping at me for months, i got tired of ignoring it so i replied directly, and.. as your history reveals, you go on a rampage of mockery, provocation, and pseudo-litigation.. all in support of your cronies' BS. No, you finally came out of the bushes, and it ain't a purty sight..
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2015 4:52:41 GMT -5
Is that why you keep telling somebody they're nobody? I'm pretty sure I've never said that. I've said the separate, volitional person does not exist. Is that what you mean? It's not the same at all. You've repeatedly said 'there is no one there', there is no one that suffers, that suffering, like choosing, simply happens.. recall our discussion about the child suffering in the war zone, where you said that there was actually no one there to suffer??
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2015 5:12:43 GMT -5
You are detached from reality, living in your own mind-play as if those beliefs were real.. i see your view, and that is the issue, it's your 'view' of reaility, not the definition of reality or even a reasonable representation of it.. Whoops! Not addressed to you..so much..really.. Whoops, clean your own house, first..
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2015 5:13:17 GMT -5
Uh-huh! Facts: (1) She stalks you for weeks (2) Adds begging for a GA to the stalking (3) You agree (4) She breaks it (5) She denies breaking it and concocts a fairytale about the denial (6) She claims that she's not interested in dialog with you (7) She starts stalking you again Wow. Like, wow. Yes, it's becoming very clear now what we are actually dealing with here. Did you know that Faye would fulfill ALL criteria for schizophrenia and psychosis if we only consider her activities on this forum? Here's what the NHS site has to say:
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2015 5:14:52 GMT -5
It's people having the same experiences and different understandings. 'Dense' is your judgment of understandings you don't like. There must be something in the water around here. Yeah, you should use bottled water.. the clarity is worth it..
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2015 5:19:37 GMT -5
There must be something in the water around here. Wow .. you don't .. I mean, you're not suggesting that tz- naw, really?? Snipe much?
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Post by quinn on Jul 1, 2015 6:49:30 GMT -5
By your avitar, it says "deleted member". That's good to read. ok ok I just gotta say man, he seemed a bit less ready for combat this time, a bit more mellow. Better energy in his words for sure. ps: and how come noone gave me a psychic friends network star for my namin' 'em after like three posts? I agree.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2015 7:05:04 GMT -5
If you only understood context and had a fully functional memory, eh? Sincerity has been part of my vocabulary for years, fyi. Part of your vocabulary, yes, but not part of your actual way of being. Now you are just figgling again. Your original point was about my 'opinion', not about my 'actual way of being'. So, there you go:
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2015 7:11:48 GMT -5
I would agree, nothing 'needs' to be pulled or encouraged...but still, pulling/encouraging seems to happen...and no, no space between God & Godding..... did you read space in something I said? The whole "loving pull" is not really something I see as worthy of arguing for....it's either felt/intuited or it's not. Yeah, you inserted a beckoning between God and the Godding. God and man are the same. (Don't tell anybody I said that) It seems to happen to you because you want it to happen, and you see what you want to see. The mysterious 3rd layer?
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Post by quinn on Jul 1, 2015 7:27:05 GMT -5
The three-way drive-by mocking is the worst. I've endured a few of those. One wears themselves out, and then two more arrive. It's like there's a bus terminal underneath the site. If half the posters are all trying to get the same point across, it may actually be worth listening to rather than mocking and dismissing.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2015 7:43:44 GMT -5
I look forward to the day that you catch up on posts. I'm nearly over my interest in the subject matter at this point because it just goes back and forth with each side entrenched. The points you're making are valid. I just wish one day the three of you would also turn them on yourselves and see that what you accuse Tenka of is exactly what you're doing. You justify mocking under the banner of truth. You are dense to Tzu's points because of his constant harangues and you're dense to Tenka's points because of your judgments of him. You don't give two figs about his perspective. And you try to get to the bottom of what you see as egoic behavior, which is exactly what Tenka was trying to do. There's no problem with any of that except for the lack of seeing it in yourselves while constantly pointing it out in others. (** straight face **) Link or giraffe. How about this one: Enigma: "We could say that there's a direct correlation between mocking and awakening. The more someone is mocked, the more chances to notice and to become conscious are bestowed upon him. It's just how the law of large numbers works, hehe." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/225701/thread
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2015 7:50:39 GMT -5
Why don't you try rephrasing it. And then I'll give you a reply using different words from what I used last time. I spoke to you of being within mind and beyond mind and it led to you not answering my thoughts about the transition from one point of perception to no point of perception amongst other things . The main stumbling block is that you speak of not coming out of S.R. butt what you are not understanding is that IN S.R. one has no point of perception and after S.R. one has attained a point of perception in order to know they have realized what they are . I have spoken of beyond mind where there is no-one and there is no universe or forums and yet you have not spoken or answered me how it is possible for the Self realized to write books about S.R. while beyond mind . What I am saying is that in order for one to do that one must have attained a point of perception of the mind (do you follow) . That means one comes out or exits the beyond mind realization of what you are in order to do that . Tenka: "Not coming out of SR" means that SR informs mind, and thereafter life continues as before but without the idea that one is a volitional entity inside a body looking at an outside world. Prior to SR, most seekers have pursued some sort of practice that cuts off thoughts, or reduces thoughts, or investigates thoughts. Niz practiced staying in the I AM; most Zen Masters practiced shikan taza or other meditative techniques; the Buddha claims that he meditated and contemplated certain specific existential questions, this body/mind practiced shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, etc. After SR, there is no longer any need to practice anything, or shun thinking, because one no longer imagines that s/he is a person who needs to attain anything that is not already present. The realization frees a body/mind from the idea that one is an entity separate from the whole of reality. The realization that we label "SR" is an insight that what we are is infinite and includes everything. This insight is not "of the mind" because it is a direct seeing that the mind has been projecting a false idea. We realize that what we are includes mind, but is a million times vaster and more intelligent than mind. We realize that we were always THAT even when we were under the illusion of being a person. It is like finding one's true home, and it leads to a kind of internal relaxation and general collapse of self-referential patterns of thinking. We become free from the search for understanding, because the realization has shown mind that its ideas about personhood were false. We become free, and we know that we are free. After SR, we can talk ABOUT SR because the realization has vastly expanded the mind's understanding. If we didn't know it beforehand, after SR, we realize that what we ARE--the totality of "what is"-- is the real do-er behind every action. This means that if this body/mind lifts its hand, it is the cosmos that is lifting the hand because there is no separateness. The body/mind and the cosmos are one. The same cosmos that is moving blood cells through the body, growing teeth or hair, generating thoughts in the intellect, or causing galaxies to collide, is the same cosmos that is moving the body as it walks and talks and breathes. After SR, one sees that there is no person who comes or goes, no boundaries of any kind (other than imaginary), and no inner or outer. This is why Adyashanti tells people, "relax and be as you are." Who we are is already free, unified, infinite, and at peace. Who we THINK we are is not. There are many people, like Tolle, who were deeply suffering over many issues for many years, but SR automatically ended their suffering and freed them from all of the ideas that were causing their suffering. Just for fun, google "buddhaatthegaspump" and listen to a few of the stories. It may help clear up any confusion you feel concerning these issues, and it may help put your own experiences and realizations into a broader perspective. Best wishes.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2015 8:07:20 GMT -5
What I'm going to write will only be understood fully by people who have experienced nirvikalpa Samadhi. While intensely attending, a meditator can sometimes feel something very strange happening. Breathing slows down until it is almost imperceptible, and selfhood gradually disappears into a state of unity. The entrance into this state of unity can be felt, but as the sense of unity deepens, the observer totally disappears into the unity. W hile this transition is occurring, it feels as if the body gradually is turning into something like a block of ice, and there is a distinct sense of coolness (and also skin surface numbness--called "the off sensation"). After a certain point, only pure awareness remains. Awareness is aware of itself, but not as an object of mind. It is as if awareness sinks to the bottom of an ocean and remains there in a state of emptiness and motionlessness. For this body/mind nothing has ever been seen or known while in that state. It is a state of pure alert attention or awareness with no content at all. IOW, there is no awareness of anything (any thing) because all thingness has vanished. I watched a video on "Buddha at the gaspump" a few nights ago, and the interviewee claimed that in deep Samadhi he perceived whiteness and some sort of energy emanating from the heart, but this rang no bells for me. For me there was never anything--no dark, no light, no nothing other than empty awareness.If thoughts arise during Samadhi, they are perceived, and if more than two or three thoughts arise, the state of Samadhi begins to dissipate, and it feels like the icecube-like state of the body gradually thaws out and returns to normal. A single thought may arise and be perceived without causing Samadhi to dissipate, but if more than that occur, Samadhi almost always ends. When Samadhi ends, a sense of selfhood gradually reappears, and the intellect gets cranked back up. The body directly knows what happened during deep samadhi--that pure awareness, alone, existed for a while in emptiness--but because there was no content there was no object-consciousness for the intellect to describe. This is why the intellect cannot say anything meaningful about the state of deep samadhi, itself. There is literally nothing to remember or describe. So, what I'm talking about here has nothing to do with integration of any kind. Samadhi is not integrated into life; it is just something that may happen to long-time meditators. With practice it is possible to enter deep Samadhi at will, but this usually requires a very silent mind, and a fair amount of practice. I liken nirvikalpa Samadhi to something like hitting the "clear" button on a calculator. It is a deeply peaceful and relaxing state of mind--probably because the intellect is inactive for a while. It is not unusual for long-time meditators to remain in a deep state of Samadhi for several hours at a time. Thanks for you thoughts Z.D. A few things just to clarify . When you mention the body has a distinct sense of coolness ... whom feels this? Whom notices this . My realization there was no universe, no mind, no association .. I wouldn't of known if my body was cool or hot .. It didn't exist at the point of realization . When you and satch pointed me towards Samadhi I looked into what peeps said about their experiences of it and much of it I couldn't compare to my own, there were a few similarities of one particular teacher . When you said there was no light and no darkness and only empty awareness can you add anymore to that .. My understanding is that what is perceived as light and dark is of the mind, and that is why when peeps that I read about regarding Samadhi relate to light and all that jazz then it isn't beyond mind . The darkness of my realization was not the darkness of the mind, there is no perceiving of darkness there is just the absence of mind if you get me . One last thing when you speak of a sense of selfhood returning after Samadhi what do you mean? Are you suggesting that one returns to the same sense of self had prior to Samadhi or that one has a completely different sense of self after Samadhi . This is where I think there can be a crossover of sorts had in relation to S.R. because if one has changed completely how they relate to themselves in terms of what they are after a realization beyond mind then some peeps would say that is because your have S.R. If you are saying that after Samadhi one returns to a sense of selfhood that was similar to how they perceived themselves prior to Samadhi then there is a clear distinction made between Samadhi and S.R. I mean if we speak of niz and Tolle as being S.R. then Tolle is carrying on cashing his cheques and getting involved in marketing himself and niz just carried on in some way and held public talks and smoked etc etc .. First, Samadhi is not SR. Samadhi is a state of mind--an experience--that lasts for a limited period of time. The body/mind goes into that state and comes out of that state. Prior to SR, one has a sense of personal selfhood, and that sense of selfhood is present both before and after experiencing Samadhi. After SR, the personal sense of selfhood and all of the past thoughts associated with that sense, are significantly absent, so entering and exiting Samadhi is seen from a far more impersonal perspective; it is just something that a meditating body/mind falls into and out of. Like you, for this body/mind there was never any perceivable darkness or lightness in Samadhi--just an absence of mind--and it is impossible to describe in words. After SR, Niz kept smoking his cigarettes and talking to seekers. Tolle's case was a bit different. He fell into a cosmic consciousness state of mind that lasted a long time. He didn't know what had happened to him until later. Eventually he had various realizations that informed mind about what had happened, and after he learned enough, he began talking with seekers. Life continues after SR but without an attachment to the idea that the body/mind is inhabited and animated by a personal self. You asked who feels the coolness or numbness upon entering deep Samadhi? The body does. Prior to SR one would say, "I felt coolness upon entering Samadhi." After SR, one would say, "There is a feeling of coolness upon entering Samadhi." One statement is personal, and the other statement is impersonal.
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Post by tenka on Jul 1, 2015 8:31:33 GMT -5
I spoke to you of being within mind and beyond mind and it led to you not answering my thoughts about the transition from one point of perception to no point of perception amongst other things . The main stumbling block is that you speak of not coming out of S.R. butt what you are not understanding is that IN S.R. one has no point of perception and after S.R. one has attained a point of perception in order to know they have realized what they are . I have spoken of beyond mind where there is no-one and there is no universe or forums and yet you have not spoken or answered me how it is possible for the Self realized to write books about S.R. while beyond mind . What I am saying is that in order for one to do that one must have attained a point of perception of the mind (do you follow) . That means one comes out or exits the beyond mind realization of what you are in order to do that . Tenka: "Not coming out of SR" means that SR informs mind, and thereafter life continues as before but without the idea that one is a volitional entity inside a body looking at an outside world. Prior to SR, most seekers have pursued some sort of practice that cuts off thoughts, or reduces thoughts, or investigates thoughts. Niz practiced staying in the I AM; most Zen Masters practiced shikan taza or other meditative techniques; the Buddha claims that he meditated and contemplated certain specific existential questions, this body/mind practiced shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception, etc. After SR, there is no longer any need to practice anything, or shun thinking, because one no longer imagines that s/he is a person who needs to attain anything that is not already present. The realization frees a body/mind from the idea that one is an entity separate from the whole of reality. The realization that we label "SR" is an insight that what we are is infinite and includes everything. This insight is not "of the mind" because it is a direct seeing that the mind has been projecting a false idea. We realize that what we are includes mind, but is a million times vaster and more intelligent than mind. We realize that we were always THAT even when we were under the illusion of being a person. It is like finding one's true home, and it leads to a kind of internal relaxation and general collapse of self-referential patterns of thinking. We become free from the search for understanding, because the realization has shown mind that its ideas about personhood were false. We become free, and we know that we are free. After SR, we can talk ABOUT SR because the realization has vastly expanded the mind's understanding. If we didn't know it beforehand, after SR, we realize that what we ARE--the totality of "what is"-- is the real do-er behind every action. This means that if this body/mind lifts its hand, it is the cosmos that is lifting the hand because there is no separateness. The body/mind and the cosmos are one. The same cosmos that is moving blood cells through the body, growing teeth or hair, generating thoughts in the intellect, or causing galaxies to collide, is the same cosmos that is moving the body as it walks and talks and breathes. After SR, one sees that there is no person who comes or goes, no boundaries of any kind (other than imaginary), and no inner or outer. This is why Adyashanti tells people, "relax and be as you are." Who we are is already free, unified, infinite, and at peace. Who we THINK we are is not. There are many people, like Tolle, who were deeply suffering over many issues for many years, but SR automatically ended their suffering and freed them from all of the ideas that were causing their suffering. Just for fun, google "buddhaatthegaspump" and listen to a few of the stories. It may help clear up any confusion you feel concerning these issues, and it may help put your own experiences and realizations into a broader perspective. Best wishes. Z.D. So there is a transition that occurs from no mind to mind, because at one point there is the realization beyond mind to then there being the awareness of mind . I have called that integrating what is realized beyond to what one is in experience of within mind via the mind-body . I have put this across many times that beyond mind there is no point of perception had and within mind there is a point of perception had whether or not one associates that to S.R. or not . As also said one cannot be of the beyond mind realization and be aware of the mind-body experience at the same time . One has to come out of the realization beyond mind and carry on living in experience of the mind-body with Self realization in toe . The totality of beyond mind S.R. cannot be maintained / emulated through a single point of perception of a mind-body . In regards to Tolle we have a different understanding of how things came about regarding his S.R. and even though he may not relate to a personal identity he carries on regardless doing things that relates to what he is that is within association to wealth and security and such likes . thanks for the "buddhaatthegaspump" link .
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