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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2015 14:43:02 GMT -5
Noone can ever jump out of their own skin, leave all of their conditioning behind and get 100% behind their subjectivity.Objectivity is situational and ultimately consists of a consensus of perspective. For example, here are two radically different ideas for objective consensus: (1) The words on the page written by "so-and-so" were "such-and-such". (2) Delusion is inevitable so it doesn't really matter what "so-and-so" actually wrote. Any and all claims about what it was that they wrote should be accepted as subjective truth. It is possible. This is the third state of consciousness, is the very definition of it, what Gurdjieff called self-remembering. Never read him but either he's wrong or your misapplying his idea to what I wrote. To be clear, the Q&A was in the context of time-bound appearance of the individual. It's possible to enter states of consciousness that minimally engage conditioning and in which there is no perception of the subject/object split. Writing about these sounds contradictory, because although after the fact it's described as a time-bound experience, the state itself seems timeless and absent the boundary between experiencer and experience. It's also possible to move and interact in the world with no resistance, no sense of self-referentiality and no psychological division between oneself and the world. The point about the persistence of subjectivity -- which at core is simply perspective -- is more clear in the case of flow because it's the body and the mind that move in the world, and each of these three objects are defined by and the result of conditions. The condition of the body starts with DNA at birth and is shaped by experience over time to result in whatever state it's in at any given moment. This general idea and a similar set of characteristics can be stated about both the mind and the world. It's less clear in terms of the deepest meditative state but the fact is that the mediator can be observed by someone looking at them and all of the details of their physiology described during the time they are in it. "Self-remembering" sounds like "Self realization", but you see, what that refers to is only tangentially related to conditions, and these objects of mind, body and world are only appearances relative to what's pointed to by the notion of "Self" in "Self Realization". Now it's true that there's this consensus on the idea of a "self-realized individual", but the conditions of each such body/mind are all quite unique. While the question of whether the commonality between such individuals can be quantified might seem interesting, the answer to it can never not be one that will inevitably lead to confusion. (** ahem ahem .. Gary Webber ... ahem **)
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Post by jay17 on Mar 25, 2015 16:15:12 GMT -5
That is all very interesting. I have only one question...what is Hyperminding?
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Post by laughter on Mar 25, 2015 23:08:39 GMT -5
That is all very interesting. I have only one question...what is Hyperminding? A process of reasoning and intellectualizing that continues past the point where the inherent limits of these movements have been demonstrated by them.
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Post by jay17 on Mar 26, 2015 1:37:46 GMT -5
That is all very interesting. I have only one question...what is Hyperminding? A process of reasoning and intellectualizing that continues past the point where the inherent limits of these movements have been demonstrated by them. Can you cite any commonly used\known synonymous words for Hyperminding because i cannot figure out if Hyperminding is a positive or negative action.
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Post by zin on Mar 26, 2015 17:54:07 GMT -5
The below are verses of a Persian song which is in one of Gurdjieff's books (Life is real only then, when 'I am'). It may not seem too much relevant but still gives some ideas..
If all men had a soul, Long ago there would have been no room left on earth For poisonous plants or wild beasts, And even evil would have ceased to exist.
Soul is for the lazy fantasy, Luxury for the indulger in suffering; It is the determiner of personality, The way and the link to the Maker and Creator.
Soul is the residue of education, The prime source of patience; It is also testimony of the merit of the essence of eternal Being.
Leader of the will, Its presence is "I am," It is a part of the All-Being, It was so and always will be.
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Post by laughter on Mar 26, 2015 18:09:36 GMT -5
The below are verses of a Persian song which is in one of Gurdjieff's books (Life is real only then, when 'I am'). It may not seem too much relevant but still gives some ideas.. If all men had a soul, Long ago there would have been no room left on earth For poisonous plants or wild beasts, And even evil would have ceased to exist. Soul is for the lazy fantasy, Luxury for the indulger in suffering; It is the determiner of personality, The way and the link to the Maker and Creator. Soul is the residue of education, The prime source of patience; It is also testimony of the merit of the essence of eternal Being. Leader of the will, Its presence is "I am," It is a part of the All-Being, It was so and always will be. Nice. No hyperminding there. Hey! That means it don't belong in the thread! Shame on you!
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Post by zin on Mar 26, 2015 18:11:35 GMT -5
The below are verses of a Persian song which is in one of Gurdjieff's books (Life is real only then, when 'I am'). It may not seem too much relevant but still gives some ideas.. If all men had a soul, Long ago there would have been no room left on earth For poisonous plants or wild beasts, And even evil would have ceased to exist. Soul is for the lazy fantasy, Luxury for the indulger in suffering; It is the determiner of personality, The way and the link to the Maker and Creator. Soul is the residue of education, The prime source of patience; It is also testimony of the merit of the essence of eternal Being. Leader of the will, Its presence is "I am," It is a part of the All-Being, It was so and always will be. Nice. No hyperminding there. Hey! That means it don't belong in the thread! Shame on you!
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Post by lolly on Mar 27, 2015 3:41:46 GMT -5
Hello,
I'm the hypermind. I think much.
You're welcome.
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Post by zin on Mar 27, 2015 3:51:04 GMT -5
Hello, I'm the hypermind. I think much. You're welcome. Thank you but the thread suffers I think (I mean, no demonstration) .
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 4:02:57 GMT -5
Hello, I'm the hypermind. I think much. You're welcome. Care to share who the majority of the thinking refers to?
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Post by laughter on Mar 27, 2015 4:42:24 GMT -5
Hello, I'm the hypermind. I think much. You're welcome. Thank you thank you thank you but if you are the hypermind and you are doing the thinking then you aren't sharing that here because you've only typed three simple sentences and you see there can't just be one hypermind because without input from other hyperminds a single hypermind in isolation wouldn't have much to base it's thinking off of because you know that hyperminding is a sort of process where one thought leads to another in an endless stream of distracted digression that never pauses and that's how the fact that the hypermind has reached and touched on the limits of the processes of thinking and reasoning but just blew right by them happens.
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Post by lolly on Mar 27, 2015 5:13:56 GMT -5
Hello, I'm the hypermind. I think much. You're welcome. Thank you thank you thank you but if you are the hypermind and you are doing the thinking then you aren't sharing that here because you've only typed three simple sentences and you see there can't just be one hypermind because without input from other hyperminds a single hypermind in isolation wouldn't have much to base it's thinking off of because you know that hyperminding is a sort of process where one thought leads to another in an endless stream of distracted digression that never pauses and that's how the fact that the hypermind has reached and touched on the limits of the processes of thinking and reasoning but just blew right by them happens. Indeed... but I maintain that I'm an expert hyperminding obsessor that can weave a spiral of digression unto the ends of exhaustion, self-depreciation and utter futility, not because I'm naturally talented, but because it's the nature of the hypermind to practice hyperminding tirelessly, continually, unendingly and without rest. The hypermind is ultimately suicidal and desires nothing more than its own end but is unable to cease of its own volition, and therefore, is driven to deplete itself in its own unending quest for its own demise while also existing in flighty panic of that mortal end. This arises from a stroke of genius that can only be achieved by hyperminds. The idea that I am not a thought, and therefore, thought must end; all the while knowing, but cleverly concealing through a brilliant structure of mental frameworks, that the end of thought will be the end of the thinker thereof, and this is where we reach the incredible ingenuity of it: only by hyperminding can the hypermind be sustained and also hope to desist.
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Post by laughter on Mar 27, 2015 5:27:14 GMT -5
Thank you thank you thank you but if you are the hypermind and you are doing the thinking then you aren't sharing that here because you've only typed three simple sentences and you see there can't just be one hypermind because without input from other hyperminds a single hypermind in isolation wouldn't have much to base it's thinking off of because you know that hyperminding is a sort of process where one thought leads to another in an endless stream of distracted digression that never pauses and that's how the fact that the hypermind has reached and touched on the limits of the processes of thinking and reasoning but just blew right by them happens. Indeed... but I maintain that I'm an expert hyperminding obsessor that can weave a spiral of digression unto the ends of exhaustion, self-depreciation and utter futility, not because I'm naturally talented, but because it's the nature of the hypermind to practice hyperminding tirelessly, continually, unendingly and without rest. The hypermind is ultimately suicidal and desires nothing more than its own end but is unable to cease of its own volition, and therefore, is driven to deplete itself in its own unending quest for it's own demise while also existing in flighty panic of that mortal end. This arises from a stroke of genius that can only be achieved by hyperminds. The idea that I am not a thought and therefore thought must end all the while knowing, but cleverly concealing through a brilliant structure of mental frameworks, the with the end of thought will be the end of the thinker thereof, and this is where we reach the incredible ingenuity of it, only by hyperminding can the hypermind be sustained and also desist. But a spiral of digression is an orderly procession that spins logically and with a sort of grace that lacks the turn of the random notion that pops into the head and suddenly switches the train of thought from the track that was leading out into the metaphorical quiet country onto the bridge over the river leading back to the metropolis of the mind. In this way the futility is encountered but never for long and any thoughts of overloading the engine with too much coal is quickly burned out by the failsafe self-sustaining routine that runs on the train conductors I-Pad that is standard hypermind issue so there is no question of volition involved as the hyperminder is just loaded up and set on runaway-mode and equipped with a piercing whistle that isn't so much a warning as a tactic to distract the people that live and drive around the tracks. Sleep is where the hypermind is repleted and it's very important for the hyperminder to start off the day immediately immersed in thoughts of existential questioning that can reach an optimal level quantified by the number of paradoxes encountered per minute. Central to those thoughts of course is the question of what one is and it is imperative that any and all options be left open and of course, the fact that the only certainty is that there is no certainty is the hyperminder's core creed, first principle and the grease that keeps the wheels of the train spinning.
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Post by lolly on Mar 27, 2015 6:28:50 GMT -5
Indeed... but I maintain that I'm an expert hyperminding obsessor that can weave a spiral of digression unto the ends of exhaustion, self-depreciation and utter futility, not because I'm naturally talented, but because it's the nature of the hypermind to practice hyperminding tirelessly, continually, unendingly and without rest. The hypermind is ultimately suicidal and desires nothing more than its own end but is unable to cease of its own volition, and therefore, is driven to deplete itself in its own unending quest for it's own demise while also existing in flighty panic of that mortal end. This arises from a stroke of genius that can only be achieved by hyperminds. The idea that I am not a thought and therefore thought must end all the while knowing, but cleverly concealing through a brilliant structure of mental frameworks, the with the end of thought will be the end of the thinker thereof, and this is where we reach the incredible ingenuity of it, only by hyperminding can the hypermind be sustained and also desist. But a spiral of digression is an orderly procession that spins logically and with a sort of grace that lacks the turn of the random notion that pops into the head and suddenly switches the train of thought from the track that was leading out into the metaphorical quiet country onto the bridge over the river leading back to the metropolis of the mind. In this way the futility is encountered but never for long and any thoughts of overloading the engine with too much coal is quickly burned out by the failsafe self-sustaining routine that runs on the train conductors I-Pad that is standard hypermind issue so there is no question of volition involved as the hyperminder is just loaded up and set on runaway-mode and equipped with a piercing whistle that isn't so much a warning as a tactic to distract the people that live and drive around the tracks. Sleep is where the hypermind is repleted and it's very important for the hyperminder to start off the day immediately immersed in thoughts of existential questioning that can reach an optimal level quantified by the number of paradoxes encountered per minute. Central to those thoughts of course is the question of what one is and it is imperative that any and all options be left open and of course, the fact that the only certainty is that there is no certainty is the hyperminder's core creed, first principle and the grease that keeps the wheels of the train spinning. The is no certainty at all, only contradictions, which is part of this all consuming quest for knowing, the search for the tangible, the lust for love, and all because to know what isn't knowledge is to die to die, and everything that is known as knowledge will be lost... even loss, and of all known things that one is afraid to lose, loss itself is the greatest, so regardless of its fuel, that which it consumes and also consumes it, the hypermind comes to the dwelling on death. Of death it can be certain, of that it both can and can't control, but you know what drives the suicidal? Where all control is lost, all but the choice of living and dying, or rather, the choice to die is in my hands. The life is not a choice, there's no control of life. How outrageous is the hyperminds control issue where to live is not choosen for life is already here, and to die is your only choice... unless you're already dying. Now the entire year and the year after that will filled with the musings of death. From mornings first moment thought will be of death, how much I crave it, for cravings are only of death. Like the orgasm: that most desired sensataton is the desire for death in that moment. Or God: to die for God, and in that orgasmic moment, what perversion mouths, 'Oh God Oh God'? But for the hypermind, death is not mere desire. Death is the black cloud of utter certainty, it's can be relied on doubtlessly. It's deemed to be that tangible thing that must be avoided by every cell in the body, yet desired unlike any other thing.
The hypermind is always in contradiction. Undetermined by creeds of uncertainty, contradiction is what keeps the wheels turning.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 27, 2015 7:28:28 GMT -5
It is possible. This is the third state of consciousness, is the very definition of it, what Gurdjieff called self-remembering. Never read him but either he's wrong or your misapplying his idea to what I wrote. To be clear, the Q&A was in the context of time-bound appearance of the individual. It's possible to enter states of consciousness that minimally engage conditioning and in which there is no perception of the subject/object split. Writing about these sounds contradictory, because although after the fact it's described as a time-bound experience, the state itself seems timeless and absent the boundary between experiencer and experience. It's also possible to move and interact in the world with no resistance, no sense of self-referentiality and no psychological division between oneself and the world. The point about the persistence of subjectivity -- which at core is simply perspective -- is more clear in the case of flow because it's the body and the mind that move in the world, and each of these three objects are defined by and the result of conditions. The condition of the body starts with DNA at birth and is shaped by experience over time to result in whatever state it's in at any given moment. This general idea and a similar set of characteristics can be stated about both the mind and the world. It's less clear in terms of the deepest meditative state but the fact is that the mediator can be observed by someone looking at them and all of the details of their physiology described during the time they are in it. "Self-remembering" sounds like "Self realization", but you see, what that refers to is only tangentially related to conditions, and these objects of mind, body and world are only appearances relative to what's pointed to by the notion of "Self" in "Self Realization". Now it's true that there's this consensus on the idea of a "self-realized individual", but the conditions of each such body/mind are all quite unique. While the question of whether the commonality between such individuals can be quantified might seem interesting, the answer to it can never not be one that will inevitably lead to confusion. (** ahem ahem .. Gary Webber ... ahem **) First of all, I don't know why my post warranted a new thread, especially with such a title? ....other than the obvious. What's obvious for anyone who has been here a while is that I am not a "hardcore" non-dualist, and in the view of the hardcore non-dualists, I'm probably not any kind of non-dualist, at all. That doesn't bother me, but the point is, I present another view here, obviously. Now, anyone reading posts cannot help but read through their own viewpoint. Meaning, I'm just wrong in how I see the universe, I can't help but be wrong in the view of the hardcore non-dualists. But I see that as others viewing through their own subjectivity, but ATST I'm sure they don't, at least the SRed. Saying all that to say that self-remembering has very little to do with what's called Self Realization, except that both have to do with seeing what's imaginary. As I was not inclined to post at all on this thread, but having done so, I will most likely not post further, here, most likely not even visit this thread, again, to whom it may concern.
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