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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 0:21:42 GMT -5
Well, you didn't. Why is it so hard to just tell me what you mean by this?: "so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess." I was addressing poppee and he's already understood what I was saying and responded to it.
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Post by steven on Jan 17, 2015 0:23:40 GMT -5
I'm asking for a definition of WIBIGO. It just means the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. It's purty durn self explanatory. An answer does not satisfy the appetite of the questioner, it only increases it. ;-)
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 3:08:25 GMT -5
Well, you didn't. Why is it so hard to just tell me what you mean by this?: "so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess." I was addressing poppee and he's already understood what I was saying and responded to it. Actually, he had the same question I did, and I didn't see where he indicated he understood, or even responded. You gave him the same sort of unrelated answer you gave me. I don't think you know what you mean, which is weird.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 3:13:18 GMT -5
It just means the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. It's purty durn self explanatory. An answer does not satisfy the appetite of the questioner, it only increases it. ;-) Sure it does, if it's realized. ZD has talked about getting answers to tons of questions. I have also, though I didn't have as many questions as ZD.
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Post by laughter on Jan 17, 2015 3:20:40 GMT -5
hehe .. I have similar visceral reactions.. which perplexes me, honestly... and seems to interfere with WIBIGO Some peeps develop a natural aversion to mental spinning for no particular reason, which is a good thingy. (** muttley snicker **)
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Post by steven on Jan 17, 2015 3:34:47 GMT -5
An answer does not satisfy the appetite of the questioner, it only increases it. ;-) Sure it does, if it's realized. ZD has talked about getting answers to tons of questions. I have also, though I didn't have as many questions as ZD. In the most wonderful of those moments, the most satisfying of those moments, did you find an answer, or did you release the question by seeing as no longer having the same relevance or importance?
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Post by laughter on Jan 17, 2015 3:36:49 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) This is excellent! There are no longer any conscious expectations, desires, or questions, and one simply deals with what is happening in the present moment and watches. This is all one can do until a particular structure of thought (self-referentiality) collapses. There is stuff happening Un-consciously, but it need not be a subject of thought. Stay present and watch. Whenever it is realized that conceptual reflectivity (about existential issues) is occurring, simply shift attention back to what is happening--to direct sensory perception. This body/mind got to exactly the same point. It realized that nothing more could be done, so it relaxed and took the attitude of, "Permanent unity-consciousness will occur in this lifetime or in another lifetime, and it no longer matters how long it takes; whatever is happening NOW is going to be the only focus of attention." The body/mind still went on periodic silent ATA-MT hikes and retreats (during which attentiveness to "what is" becomes intensified and prolonged), and one day several months later a realization occurred that ended the search for truth and resulted in freedom. Just watch, until the imaginary watcher vanishes and the REAL watcher is all that remains. No it need not be, but if something that was previously happening unconsciously comes into the light of day it can have a profound effect on the watching. If one makes their living with their mind there is inherent value placed on the process of reasoning. Becoming conscious of the nature of reasoning about what is ultimately unreasonable can lead to something similar to this valuation with regard to attention without thought. To say that this something similar is a valuing of nonconceptual looking isn't quite accurate, as, unlike the prizes associated with intellect, there's no covetousness involved.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 3:38:28 GMT -5
Ha ha. Good luck with that. If it could be defined, it wouldn't be WIBIGO. OK...............I was not in on the beginning, I don't know what WIBIGO refers to............ .............I thought it meant All This ........happening.......... That's correct.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 4:36:43 GMT -5
Sure it does, if it's realized. ZD has talked about getting answers to tons of questions. I have also, though I didn't have as many questions as ZD. In the most wonderful of those moments, the most satisfying of those moments, did you find an answer, or did you release the question by seeing as no longer having the same relevance or importance? People answer this question differently. In my case, I would say that I found concrete answers to questions that put the issues totally to rest. To me the questions were important and the answers were even more important. Examples? 1. What is a tree, really ("das ding an sich")? Silently points to a tree. I realized the difference between the idea "tree" and what a tree IS. 2. What is a subatomic particle, really? It is an idea/image--an imaginary inference. I realized the difference between "reality" and models of reality. Models can be intellectually understood; reality cannot. Reality can only be apprehended or understood directly--through the body. 3. Who am I, really? I am "what is." Who I thought I was was a thought, only. 4. Is there a God? The totality of "what is" is a unified living presence that is vast and incomprehensible to the mind. Call it whatever you wish. Seeing THAT puts the issue to rest. My short answer would be "Yes, but it isn't what you think. What it IS cannot be imagined." 5. What should I do in a particular high-stakes personal real-life koan situation? After contemplation, the answer became crystal clear. I realized that I had to be true to the truth of what I am, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought about that decision, and it didn't matter what happened as a result of that decision. I realized how reality had to manifest through this particular body/mind in that particular situation. This realization led to vast freedom. 6. How is it possible for a person to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently? It isn't possible, because there is no person experiencing different states of mind. "What is" is a unified whole, and everything that happens happens within THAT. Another way of saying the same thing is that nothing ever happens; everything is simply an unfoldment of isness. I could list fifty more examples, but these are enough to provide the flavor of how things unfolded for this body/mind.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 17, 2015 7:29:10 GMT -5
E says ZD says Fir the record, I’m not interested in models and theories, only in WIBIGO and in the direct knowing/being of it. Even thinking about discussing models/theories makes me puke in my mouth and fall asleep at the same time. I’ve been a bit quiet here lately because there seems (IMO) to be too much noodling about on stuff which is not WIBIGO. Also quiet because I don’t have any questions at this stage. My "practice" is just reduced to doing what is in front of me and observation without expectation. I don’t even know how to talk about this stuff anymore. I’m happy to get into a conversation about living this way and put any beliefs or what-not on to the chopping block. I’d rather go to the moon than sit around drawing pictures of spaceships (pew pew mfkers… ) This is excellent! There are no longer any conscious expectations, desires, or questions, and one simply deals with what is happening in the present moment and watches. This is all one can do until a particular structure of thought (self-referentiality) collapses. There is stuff happening Un-consciously, but it need not be a subject of thought. Stay present and watch. Whenever it is realized that conceptual reflectivity (about existential issues) is occurring, simply shift attention back to what is happening--to direct sensory perception. This body/mind got to exactly the same point. It realized that nothing more could be done, so it relaxed and took the attitude of, "Permanent unity-consciousness will occur in this lifetime or in another lifetime, and it no longer matters how long it takes; whatever is happening NOW is going to be the only focus of attention." The body/mind still went on periodic silent ATA-MT hikes and retreats (during which attentiveness to "what is" becomes intensified and prolonged), and one day several months later a realization occurred that ended the search for truth and resulted in freedom. Just watch, until the imaginary watcher vanishes and the REAL watcher is all that remains. Just watch, you are that which is watching.. conceptual conflicts about real and or imaginary watchers are distractions, don't get caught-up in the intellectualized discussions that are self-replicating illusions of beliefs.. those that have been to zero/neutral/empty understand the futility of intellectualized debate, they understand the certainty of Living the realization as an example to those that are interested or those that become interested through the interaction.. Just watch.. empty mind still mind sees, active mind thinking mind looks..
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Post by lolly on Jan 17, 2015 8:47:44 GMT -5
This is how it works right... I don't have a clue what WIBIGO means, so when it's said, no model or meaning occurs to my mind. That's the thing, innit.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2015 8:54:06 GMT -5
This is quibbling, but seeing and looking are synonyms.
...empty mind still mind sees/looks; active mind thinking mind thinks...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 17, 2015 9:01:22 GMT -5
I was addressing poppee and he's already understood what I was saying and responded to it. Actually, he had the same question I did, and I didn't see where he indicated he understood, or even responded. You gave him the same sort of unrelated answer you gave me. I don't think you know what you mean, which is weird. It's not weird, it's poetry, silver is a poet. Poets write stuff they don't understand all the time, it's practically a "job" description. I'd be willing to guess that you don't read much poetry. You need but look at silver's avatars and know she's an artist. You're a head person, silver is a heart person, you don't speak the same language. You really do need to relax a little E, chill out. Automagically is a great word. ...........you know, like meatphysics......... .........you don't have to understand it.......you feel it in your bones.....automagically is probably like.....Harry Pottering......... ..........it was like the equanimity was imagined, not real........automagically....Harry Pottering.....6 of 1....1/2 dozen of the other.......what silver said makes perfect sense.......
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Post by steven on Jan 17, 2015 9:17:53 GMT -5
In the most wonderful of those moments, the most satisfying of those moments, did you find an answer, or did you release the question by seeing as no longer having the same relevance or importance? People answer this question differently. In my case, I would say that I found concrete answers to questions that put the issues totally to rest. To me the questions were important and the answers were even more important. Examples? 1. What is a tree, really ("das ding an sich")? Silently points to a tree. I realized the difference between the idea "tree" and what a tree IS. 2. What is a subatomic particle, really? It is an idea/image--an imaginary inference. I realized the difference between "reality" and models of reality. Models can be intellectually understood; reality cannot. Reality can only be apprehended or understood directly--through the body. 3. Who am I, really? I am "what is." Who I thought I was was a thought, only. 4. Is there a God? The totality of "what is" is a unified living presence that is vast and incomprehensible to the mind. Call it whatever you wish. Seeing THAT puts the issue to rest. My short answer would be "Yes, but it isn't what you think. What it IS cannot be imagined." 5. What should I do in a particular high-stakes personal real-life koan situation? After contemplation, the answer became crystal clear. I realized that I had to be true to the truth of what I am, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought about that decision, and it didn't matter what happened as a result of that decision. I realized how reality had to manifest through this particular body/mind in that particular situation. This realization led to vast freedom. 6. How is it possible for a person to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently? It isn't possible, because there is no person experiencing different states of mind. "What is" is a unified whole, and everything that happens happens within THAT. Another way of saying the same thing is that nothing ever happens; everything is simply an unfoldment of isness. I could list fifty more examples, but these are enough to provide the flavor of how things unfolded for this body/mind. Ahh, very cool ZD, though I think that shifted the conversation from being about whether a question can be satisfied by an answer, or whether the questioner can be satisfied by an answer. In my experience, most answers increase the appetite for more questions in the questioner. The more you seek the more you find, and the more you find the more you seek. Only when you let go of seeking, questioning, and reside comfortably in "I don't know" does a persistent peace, contentment, and spaciousness linger. Haha, but that's just this little node of directed attention's experience. :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2015 11:42:49 GMT -5
Well, you didn't. Why is it so hard to just tell me what you mean by this?: "so much for automagically creating equanimity, i guess." I was addressing poppee and he's already understood what I was saying and responded to it. yes, and no
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