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Post by quinn on Jan 16, 2015 19:43:29 GMT -5
Ummm...A model is a representation of something 'actual'. When we describe our own experiences, understandings, realizations, we're using words and ideas to represent them. Your point is well taken that these words and ideas are not to be looked at, it's what they're representing (pointing to) that's meant to be looked at. But they're still models until that point. Or maps or pointers. Theories are different in that they're extrapolations/ideas about the experience, understanding, realization. The one who is pointing to potential nonconceptual realizations does not have a model. Using words to point does not mean he has a model he's working from. The distinction is a bit subtle, but the point that one is not pointing to a model is important. You're reading more into it than I am. Would you have the same reaction if I suggested that the one pointing was "offering a map"? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 16, 2015 19:47:53 GMT -5
One can wander around lost in the forest of WIBIGO their whole life. A model merely shows where to look, how to look and why to look. Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo. It seems that What In the Blazes Is Going On? is the very definition of lost. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 19:58:22 GMT -5
You know what eggsagerating means, right? That's an odd question to ask. Even if it WAS an exaggeration, an examination of the movement to exaggerate in that particular way would likely reveal beliefs that can go on the chopping block. No, it seemed like just a bit of silliness. Maybe if you just chilled a bit, the whole deally would seem like a non-issue. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 19:59:19 GMT -5
Talking about the boundaries of other peep's models is not the presentation of a model. Oh but it is in it's own way. In order to talk about the boundaries of other's models, you would have to have a model of your own, in which there would be some kind of understanding about boundaries. You reveal much about your model when you challenge other people's models.  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 16, 2015 20:04:23 GMT -5
That's an odd question to ask. Even if it WAS an exaggeration, an examination of the movement to exaggerate in that particular way would likely reveal beliefs that can go on the chopping block. No, it seemed like just a bit of silliness. Maybe if you just chilled a bit, the whole deally would seem like a non-issue.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 16, 2015 20:06:45 GMT -5
Hey earnest...........so there in nobody who is lost in WIBIGO? What you're suggesting is that one can get lost amid the actuality of what is happening behind the stories and models, which doesn't make sense. If one is lost, he's lost in illusion. If you think WIBIGO is some complex model, then you're lost in what you think is going on rather than what is going on. WIBIGO is not about experiences. I agree, If one is lost, he's lost in illusion. I've never taken WIBIGO to be any kind of model. I've always take WIBIGO merely to be WIBIGO. I've always taken WIBIGO to mean WIBIGO. If WIBIGO doesn't refer to experiences, then I need a definition........of...WIBIGO. WIBIGO?  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 20:16:46 GMT -5
The one who is pointing to potential nonconceptual realizations does not have a model. Using words to point does not mean he has a model he's working from. The distinction is a bit subtle, but the point that one is not pointing to a model is important. You're reading more into it than I am. Would you have the same reaction if I suggested that the one pointing was "offering a map"? From my perspective, you're reading more into it than I am. I'm just saying what's being pointed to is not a model. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 20:18:07 GMT -5
Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo. It seems that What In the Blazes Is Going On? is the very definition of lost. Does it really?  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 20:21:00 GMT -5
What you're suggesting is that one can get lost amid the actuality of what is happening behind the stories and models, which doesn't make sense. If one is lost, he's lost in illusion. If you think WIBIGO is some complex model, then you're lost in what you think is going on rather than what is going on. WIBIGO is not about experiences. I agree, If one is lost, he's lost in illusion. I've never taken WIBIGO to be any kind of model. I've always take WIBIGO merely to be WIBIGO. Explain that to Andrew. Experiences? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 16, 2015 20:25:05 GMT -5
I agree, If one is lost, he's lost in illusion. I've never taken WIBIGO to be any kind of model. I've always take WIBIGO merely to be WIBIGO. Explain that to Andrew. Experiences? I'm asking for a definition of WIBIGO. |
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Post by quinn on Jan 16, 2015 21:39:51 GMT -5
You're reading more into it than I am. Would you have the same reaction if I suggested that the one pointing was "offering a map"? From my perspective, you're reading more into it than I am. I'm just saying what's being pointed to is not a model. Ok. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 16, 2015 21:51:32 GMT -5
Explain that to Andrew. Experiences? I'm asking for a definition of WIBIGO. Ha ha. Good luck with that. If it could be defined, it wouldn't be WIBIGO. |
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Post by steven on Jan 16, 2015 22:02:56 GMT -5
Are you personally lost in the forest of WIBIGO? Right now? In this thread I'm interested in the poster's actual experience, not a hypothetical one who hypothetically gets lost. I can't see how you could get lost in WIBIGO... lost in models, theories etc yes, but WIBIGO? I guess I see models/theories as an overlay that may be helpful up to a point, but surely its clear that at some point it becomes apparent that ALL models/theories are overlays and abstractions and perhaps there is something more interesting right in front of your face right now that's worth exploring It's a very tired old analogy, but this seems like the whole map is not the territory or the menu isn't the meal thingo. I say a compass is needed. I still say if one doesn't know where, how and why to look, one is lost. Haha, a 'Don't Know' mind has found it's way home, neither lost nor found, nor looking or finding....just here, sitting here in the car listening to the radio, without judgement, discernment, or discrimination. The mind that seeks, asks, and tries to penetrate where to look is hungry, the mind that doesn't know, and is okay with that, resides in a condition of peace, spaciousness, and in the fullness of silent contentment. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 16, 2015 22:17:17 GMT -5
I'm asking for a definition of WIBIGO. Ha ha. Good luck with that. If it could be defined, it wouldn't be WIBIGO. OK...............I was not in on the beginning, I don't know what WIBIGO refers to............  .............I thought it meant All This ........happening..........  |
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2015 23:50:04 GMT -5
Explain that to Andrew. Experiences? I'm asking for a definition of WIBIGO. It just means the truth of the situation, whatever it might be. It's purty durn self explanatory. |
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.............I thought it meant All This ........happening.......... 