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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2015 8:06:09 GMT -5
And, that's your model, you back out.. no, people are trying to help you see what you won't look at.. And what I really need to see is that I have a model, right? And all these good folks are just doing an intervention to help me face up to it and get the help I need. Isn't there just a tiny part of you that knows how insane you sound? Honestly, I don't think peeps are trying to 'help', for my part I am trying to figure out the terms of the discussions that we have here. I think that I am offering a model (or models) which means I am offering contextual, relative, subjective ideas, understandings and truths (though as part of this I might state them as if they are absolute truths )...so the question I find myself asking is what other peeps think they are offering....? When I am arguing with you, I am stating truths in the moment for sure, but my model contextualizes those truths. What I mean is that I resonate with the idea of collapsing all these truths into a 'greasy spot' but for me, this still happens as part of the overall model. For me there is no 'actual' point at which ideas collapse, so I am only ever offering a model here. How is it for you?
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Post by silver on Jan 20, 2015 10:15:44 GMT -5
Speaking of models... This bit doesn't include the part where Mr. Burns is first showing Smithers his model and Smithers says, "Nice model, sir," whereupon Mr. Burns says, "Model?!" ...love it
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Post by enigma on Jan 20, 2015 10:24:29 GMT -5
And what I really need to see is that I have a model, right? And all these good folks are just doing an intervention to help me face up to it and get the help I need. Isn't there just a tiny part of you that knows how insane you sound? No, not even a tiny part.. you function under the delusion you have no models, and all you need do is see yourself honestly, with clarity to realize you do, but.. you demonstrate no willingness to see yourself clearly, so enjoy the delusion.. For the last time, I'm saying what I'm pointing to is not a model of reality.
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Post by silver on Jan 20, 2015 10:32:55 GMT -5
No, not even a tiny part.. you function under the delusion you have no models, and all you need do is see yourself honestly, with clarity to realize you do, but.. you demonstrate no willingness to see yourself clearly, so enjoy the delusion.. For the last time, I'm saying what I'm pointing to is not a model of reality. You're clearly arguing over a simple case of semantics.
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Post by daeronb on Feb 6, 2015 15:52:24 GMT -5
This is a rather quick post (which doesn't do the subject justice) because I don't have much time unfortunately, but I'm writing this now to possibly get back to later. I'd quickly like to comment that I feel that a lot of time when talking about subjects like equanimity and attaining it or developing it is putting the cart before the horse. As if equanimity is something to develop or attain in it's own right. Or as a way of getting closer to awakening. To me it's the other way around. Focus on attaining awakening as a whole, and equanimity will be a natural 'side effect'. This way you are free of developing any unconscious forms of 'striving for' equanimity, which obviously immediately defeats the purpose. Hello again Daeron. I have to agree with you. I also don't think there is anyone that actually understands Equanimity, although there are plenty who believe they do. Equanimity is not an object of the mind that can be explored, but rather a characteristic of being, something else no one actually understands. At least from this spiritual seekers perspective. Hi Source, yes this is pretty much exactly why I said the above. Searching for equanimity as if there is someone doing the searching and as if there is someplace that someone can get to to find it is what I called putting the cart before the horse Looking for equanimity in this way, and as a sort of stepping stone to achieve a higher state of awakening, to me, can never be equanimity, even when you think you've found it. It's an element that is inseparable from having an awakened mind in that moment. So why not go for that, and get equanimity 'for free'. Instead of trying to go after equanimity as if it is something separate with the (rather big) risk of being misled into 'thinking' you've 'found' when in reality it's something totally different without realizing it is, because it's not anchored in a bigger, more substantial foundation. Warm regards (all), Daeron
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Post by lolly on Feb 16, 2015 4:54:17 GMT -5
That's what I meant, though if it's safe it's comfortable, and if it's perilous, not so much, but is there a point to this line of inquiry, or is a general interest thing?I'm interested in the highly reactive anger that you describe. You said that you wanted to deny the anger you feel at yourself so I was opening up some ideas about how anger happens with other people. I'm somewhat of an expert because I experienced great anger and hurt people and in the end, that wasn't easy to live with. As it occurs to me now, it still isn't an easy thing. It's not really a matter if I forgive myself or if those people forgive me, because it seems more like it relies on those people being recovered from the hurtful wounds I perpetrated, and if they are still walking wounded, then I will be part of it, and in some sense of humanity, the heart is always made a little bit heavy as long as people suffer, and being the instrument of suffering rather than the instrument of healing is the path of an angry man.
How it happens... how complex is that, my father was bad tempered, everyone around was mad, and just to live required both defensiveness and aggression, and there's terrible things that bring that about that deeply affect a person, but the booze and dope helps maintain an even keel, and there I was thinking that sobering up would make life so much better, but the day I smoked my last bong was the day it all started to come apart, and nothing was better. Everything became worse and I lost everything from love money and home... but I was still sober.
It's also easier when you retreat from everything, resign, so you don't have to face things that cause duress, besides, if you hurt people you loved, it's only natural to become afraid of yourself, and retreat out of the sense of being dangerous, so you won't subject anyone else to it, and I guess with that comes abject self hatred that brings about, 'I'm only gunna create misery for anyone who gets close to me'. Maybe an untrue statement in itself, but if the past is anything to go by... then...
Now days, it's cooling, but as yet I haven't been tested, so I don't really know how I'll fare... however, I have learned that there's always the option of retreating before anyone gets hurt.
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Post by lolly on Feb 16, 2015 5:09:43 GMT -5
Yep coming to an understanding is really the point of it really, so we're on the same page to that extent, but I'm speaking about the mechanism of the behavior directly, and you're talking about camels and mirages.
The first point I made was that reactionary behaviours are personal reactions to the qualia (or the feel of) experiences. I'll elaborate by saying that all the senses of the body and mind affect the nervous system, and that sensational experience where the disparaged senses unite and the sensational feeling is what is reacted to. A person doesn't react directly to a sound or a sight. They react to the sensational feeling that occurs within them. Are we still on the same page?
What word written on this forum isn't in some measure a response to a stimuli of some other word, image or other content that led to that response? The line between response and reactivity is both situational and fluid, though of course the duck test always applies ( :D (** blush ** ) ..). There is a difference between a conscious reaction and an unconscious one, but that topic would be a repeat of a recent dialog from elsewhere. You see, the deliberate attempt to evoke a reaction can be witnessed, and a conscious response to the fact of the attempts to evoke is different from an unconscious response to the attempts themselves. Well, everything I say is a response to what arises in me upon being receptive to what I read, which has come about in the same way in another, so the actual dynamic is pretty amazing... mind boggling really. Response/reaction... that's like a theory I have about the two response mechanisms, reflex and reaction, and it's a self observational derivative, but could be a convoluted essay as a post.
Well, one can be conscious of the reaction, but through it be informed of some little nest of fear of which there previously unconscious of.
Yes I have noticed what I presume as intended to invoke a reaction. I don't what nature of sensation gives rise to that or what need is fulfilled by is, but the person intending to provoke a reaction must actually be aware of it, but possibly has mental strategies of denial or justification, because all in all, there is no reason to beyond some kind of sensory response within that person themselves. I think, if I am presently aware of the senses of myself, I'm much less likely to be provoked and less likely to behave reactively, but rather, be aware of that sense, and respond mindfully. It's a bit of a work in progress, but I just don't see any other way, and mindfulness must mean being aware of what's happening in the body, and responding in respect to that, is it?
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Post by laughter on Feb 16, 2015 10:58:08 GMT -5
What word written on this forum isn't in some measure a response to a stimuli of some other word, image or other content that led to that response? The line between response and reactivity is both situational and fluid, though of course the duck test always applies ( (** blush ** ) ..). There is a difference between a conscious reaction and an unconscious one, but that topic would be a repeat of a recent dialog from elsewhere. You see, the deliberate attempt to evoke a reaction can be witnessed, and a conscious response to the fact of the attempts to evoke is different from an unconscious response to the attempts themselves. Well, everything I say is a response to what arises in me upon being receptive to what I read, which has come about in the same way in another, so the actual dynamic is pretty amazing... mind boggling really. Response/reaction... that's like a theory I have about the two response mechanisms, reflex and reaction, and it's a self observational derivative, but could be a convoluted essay as a post.
Well, one can be conscious of the reaction, but through it be informed of some little nest of fear of which there previously unconscious of.
Yes I have noticed what I presume as intended to invoke a reaction. I don't what nature of sensation gives rise to that or what need is fulfilled by is, but the person intending to provoke a reaction must actually be aware of it, but possibly has mental strategies of denial or justification, because all in all, there is no reason to beyond some kind of sensory response within that person themselves. I think, if I am presently aware of the senses of myself, I'm much less likely to be provoked and less likely to behave reactively, but rather, be aware of that sense, and respond mindfully. It's a bit of a work in progress, but I just don't see any other way, and mindfulness must mean being aware of what's happening in the body, and responding in respect to that, is it?
Yes, I don't know of any other way either.
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Post by laughter on Feb 16, 2015 23:43:54 GMT -5
I'm interested in the highly reactive anger that you describe. You said that you wanted to deny the anger you feel at yourself so I was opening up some ideas about how anger happens with other people. I'm somewhat of an expert because I experienced great anger and hurt people and in the end, that wasn't easy to live with. As it occurs to me now, it still isn't an easy thing. It's not really a matter if I forgive myself or if those people forgive me, because it seems more like it relies on those people being recovered from the hurtful wounds I perpetrated, and if they are still walking wounded, then I will be part of it, and in some sense of humanity, the heart is always made a little bit heavy as long as people suffer, and being the instrument of suffering rather than the instrument of healing is the path of an angry man.
How it happens... how complex is that, my father was bad tempered, everyone around was mad, and just to live required both defensiveness and aggression, and there's terrible things that bring that about that deeply affect a person, but the booze and dope helps maintain an even keel, and there I was thinking that sobering up would make life so much better, but the day I smoked my last bong was the day it all started to come apart, and nothing was better. Everything became worse and I lost everything from love money and home... but I was still sober.
It's also easier when you retreat from everything, resign, so you don't have to face things that cause duress, besides, if you hurt people you loved, it's only natural to become afraid of yourself, and retreat out of the sense of being dangerous, so you won't subject anyone else to it, and I guess with that comes abject self hatred that brings about, 'I'm only gunna create misery for anyone who gets close to me'. Maybe an untrue statement in itself, but if the past is anything to go by... then...
Now days, it's cooling, but as yet I haven't been tested, so I don't really know how I'll fare... however, I have learned that there's always the option of retreating before anyone gets hurt.
D@mn lolz, heavy stuff bro'.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 20:13:27 GMT -5
I'm interested in the highly reactive anger that you describe. You said that you wanted to deny the anger you feel at yourself so I was opening up some ideas about how anger happens with other people. I'm somewhat of an expert because I experienced great anger and hurt people and in the end, that wasn't easy to live with. As it occurs to me now, it still isn't an easy thing. It's not really a matter if I forgive myself or if those people forgive me, because it seems more like it relies on those people being recovered from the hurtful wounds I perpetrated, and if they are still walking wounded, then I will be part of it, and in some sense of humanity, the heart is always made a little bit heavy as long as people suffer, and being the instrument of suffering rather than the instrument of healing is the path of an angry man.
How it happens... how complex is that, my father was bad tempered, everyone around was mad, and just to live required both defensiveness and aggression, and there's terrible things that bring that about that deeply affect a person, but the booze and dope helps maintain an even keel, and there I was thinking that sobering up would make life so much better, but the day I smoked my last bong was the day it all started to come apart, and nothing was better. Everything became worse and I lost everything from love money and home... but I was still sober.
It's also easier when you retreat from everything, resign, so you don't have to face things that cause duress, besides, if you hurt people you loved, it's only natural to become afraid of yourself, and retreat out of the sense of being dangerous, so you won't subject anyone else to it, and I guess with that comes abject self hatred that brings about, 'I'm only gunna create misery for anyone who gets close to me'. Maybe an untrue statement in itself, but if the past is anything to go by... then...
Now days, it's cooling, but as yet I haven't been tested, so I don't really know how I'll fare... however, I have learned that there's always the option of retreating before anyone gets hurt.
I recognise learnt behaviour. I laughingly acknowledge the dysfunctional nurturing I received when it flows through and out into the world, though I also relish the solitude that digging deep into those trajectories warrants. The duplication of the environmental madness that some of us were raised in, is, sometimes the most familiar mechanism of communication. The deep fact about waking up though, is that sobriety is the only place that it can fully take shape, and so the hues that sobriety brings are going to be a lot more vivid. Anything that is being held together by intoxication must fall. And anger will encourage that fall. Undoubtedly. When the dust has settled and the lines of communication that are still open, re-open. Then a more solid representation can be put forward. We rarely lose our temper with people that we don't care about. And the vividity and sensitivity that sobriety is built of, must become to feel comfortable. This is where the return is human centred. Palms open. Respect pumping through our shoulders and thighs. The feet that carry us to our bathe in forgiveness must have strong calves and ankles. "Only the one that inflicts the pain can take it away."
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