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Post by andrew on Jan 18, 2015 16:53:27 GMT -5
yes, it's also why I put 'evidence' in quotations, it's not scientifically acceptable 'evidence'. On the other hand, I wonder about the 'rationality' of atheism...it doesn't strike me as very rational to chalk up the amazing patterns of life to being some kind of strange random reason-less accident. I'm not saying there is a God, but God makes more sense to me at the level of heart and mind than 'reasonless accident'. But I don't resonate with the idea of a 'separate' Creator. I can understand all that. The use of the word Creator conjures up the separate business, in my mind anyway. Yet another troublesome word! The original conversation was interesting, though - that there's a lot that goes on in the world that can suggest that there's a God/Creator, especially in nature. But is it true? I don't think the answer to that is anything that can be arrived at by rationality or logic. I agree. My straight answer is a 'yes', though me old monkey mind might then want to know more about what kind of God this is, and this can be a time in which I might say 'stfu' hehe. I understand that other's may have a different straight answer though.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2015 18:42:47 GMT -5
There's plenty of evidence that suggests there may be a God. It's an illusion that cannot be revealed by investigating physical 'reality'. There are many other illusions that cannot be seen through that way, and in fact may be reinforced, so the physical metaphors are imperfect, as are all metaphors. (** looks out window **) ((**wiggles fingers in front of face**)
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2015 18:45:23 GMT -5
There's plenty of evidence that suggests there may be a God. It's an illusion that cannot be revealed by investigating physical 'reality'. There are many other illusions that cannot be seen through that way, and in fact may be reinforced, so the physical metaphors are imperfect, as are all metaphors. Perhaps you could share some of the evidence you say suggests there may be a God... Yes, I could.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2015 20:28:16 GMT -5
Perhaps you could share some of the evidence you say suggests there may be a God... It's a Martian puffer! I knew it!
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2015 20:30:05 GMT -5
Yeah. I would say the 'evidence' of God is found by looking at the improbability of the alternative, the alternative being that the unbelievably intricate and wondrous patterns of life are for no reason, an accident, random. The structures of the universe are so synchronistic, so precise, so intelligent, so 'ordered' (even when they are in disorder), that it's hard to ignore the possibility of some kind of 'Creator' of all that is. Yes, it's the most logical conclusion.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2015 20:33:08 GMT -5
Yeah. I would say the 'evidence' of God is found by looking at the improbability of the alternative, the alternative being that the unbelievably intricate and wondrous patterns of life are for no reason, an accident, random. The structures of the universe are so synchronistic, so precise, so intelligent, so 'ordered' (even when they are in disorder), that it's hard to ignore the possibility of some kind of 'Creator' of all that is. Yes, I'd agree it infers some kind of 'creator', but I wouldn't consider it evidence. Just a suggestion, really. It's also possible that this creator is in acutality simply creat ion - some synergistic happening of 'all that is' as opposed to some thing separate and/or prior. Maybe we could devote the next 50 pages to defining evidence?
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Post by andrew on Jan 18, 2015 20:43:44 GMT -5
Yeah. I would say the 'evidence' of God is found by looking at the improbability of the alternative, the alternative being that the unbelievably intricate and wondrous patterns of life are for no reason, an accident, random. The structures of the universe are so synchronistic, so precise, so intelligent, so 'ordered' (even when they are in disorder), that it's hard to ignore the possibility of some kind of 'Creator' of all that is. Yes, it's the most logical conclusion. yes, I suspect to many it wouldn't seem logical as it is flies in the face of empirical type science, but I would say that it is the most logical/rational conclusion.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 18, 2015 21:17:22 GMT -5
Yes, it's the most logical conclusion. yes, I suspect to many it wouldn't seem logical as it is flies in the face of empirical type science, but I would say that it is the most logical/rational conclusion. On this we disagree.. if you hadn't been conditioned by socio-religious beliefs since early childhood, it is highly unlikely that you would conjure a creator, given the observable organic processes and the evolved abilities of observation and deduction.. God is a cultural artifact from a distant past of human experience, brought forward by its usefulness for controlling believers..
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Post by figgles on Jan 18, 2015 22:07:14 GMT -5
You're making some progress.. you've understood cause and effect, and you finally acknowledge 'time', the interval between events.. There is no cause/effect within creation itself. Time is an illusion.Still your mind and let go of your beliefs. So...when you say, "it doesn't happen overnight" you're just blowing smoke up folks pants or skirt?? Thing is, it very well could just happen overnight. Why would you tell folks on one minute that "it doesn't happen overnight", as though you know what yer talking about, and then in the next say, "There is no cause/effect within creation itself..time is an illusion?" If the 2nd assertion is true, it darned well just might happen overnight, no? So why try to sway folks against that possibility?
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2015 2:03:09 GMT -5
There is no cause/effect within creation itself. Time is an illusion.Still your mind and let go of your beliefs. So...when you say, "it doesn't happen overnight" you're just blowing smoke up folks pants or skirt?? Thing is, it very well could just happen overnight. Why would you tell folks on one minute that "it doesn't happen overnight", as though you know what yer talking about, and then in the next say, "There is no cause/effect within creation itself..time is an illusion?" If the 2nd assertion is true, it darned well just might happen overnight, no? So why try to sway folks against that possibility? Two different contexts. Mind invents the structure within which all ideas are placed, just as it invents the ideas, and the words to talk about those ideas. Everything floats around like some kind of super data cloud, unreferenced to anything. The reference for whatever we talk about must be supplied, and this is context. Without context, nothing makes sense.
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Post by laughter on Jan 19, 2015 3:34:42 GMT -5
((**wiggles fingers in front of face**) That which appearances appear to never makes an appearance.
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Post by andrew on Jan 19, 2015 4:31:52 GMT -5
yes, I suspect to many it wouldn't seem logical as it is flies in the face of empirical type science, but I would say that it is the most logical/rational conclusion. On this we disagree.. if you hadn't been conditioned by socio-religious beliefs since early childhood, it is highly unlikely that you would conjure a creator, given the observable organic processes and the evolved abilities of observation and deduction.. God is a cultural artifact from a distant past of human experience, brought forward by its usefulness for controlling believers.. I get what you are saying but I also wonder if humans, given their self-awareness, were always going to question...'why all this?'....and come up with an answer such as 'God'. Like I said, to me, when I look at the alternative answers available, they also seem unlikely.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 19, 2015 6:19:53 GMT -5
On this we disagree.. if you hadn't been conditioned by socio-religious beliefs since early childhood, it is highly unlikely that you would conjure a creator, given the observable organic processes and the evolved abilities of observation and deduction.. God is a cultural artifact from a distant past of human experience, brought forward by its usefulness for controlling believers.. I get what you are saying but I also wonder if humans, given their self-awareness, were always going to question...'why all this?'....and come up with an answer such as 'God'. Like I said, to me, when I look at the alternative answers available, they also seem unlikely. I don't 'look for' answers, i 'see' what is happening.. there is the happening, complete in its unfolding and with our individuated participation contributing to that completeness.. in the present 'now' there is no beneficial result flowing from speculation about creators and Gods, and there is great benefit from letting go of that mind-play..
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 19, 2015 6:25:05 GMT -5
So...when you say, "it doesn't happen overnight" you're just blowing smoke up folks pants or skirt?? Thing is, it very well could just happen overnight. Why would you tell folks on one minute that "it doesn't happen overnight", as though you know what yer talking about, and then in the next say, "There is no cause/effect within creation itself..time is an illusion?" If the 2nd assertion is true, it darned well just might happen overnight, no? So why try to sway folks against that possibility? Two different contexts. Mind invents the structure within which all ideas are placed, just as it invents the ideas, and the words to talk about those ideas. Everything floats around like some kind of super data cloud, unreferenced to anything. The reference for whatever we talk about must be supplied, and this is context. Without context, nothing makes sense. Slippery as an eel.. the fear of not being perceived as all-knowing inspires convoluted mind-play to cover the obvious contradictions..
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Post by andrew on Jan 19, 2015 8:11:52 GMT -5
I get what you are saying but I also wonder if humans, given their self-awareness, were always going to question...'why all this?'....and come up with an answer such as 'God'. Like I said, to me, when I look at the alternative answers available, they also seem unlikely. I don't 'look for' answers, i 'see' what is happening.. there is the happening, complete in its unfolding and with our individuated participation contributing to that completeness.. in the present 'now' there is no beneficial result flowing from speculation about creators and Gods, and there is great benefit from letting go of that mind-play.. I would agree that it is speculation, and I also understand the distinction there between 'looking for' and 'seeing', but humans are speculative creatures and I don't think this speculation is always harmful. In a sense, intuition is speculation. Certainly much harm has happened in the name of God, but I wouldn't say ALL notions of God are harmful. So for me, what it boils down to at a practical level, is whether the idea of God has value and whether it has the potential to improve the quality of the overall human experience, or if all ideas of God will create harm.
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