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Post by laughter on Jan 17, 2015 15:12:46 GMT -5
There was simply no way that this thread could not result in some intense irony.
(** straight face **)
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Post by laughter on Jan 17, 2015 15:18:47 GMT -5
No, that's what I've been saying. What you said is "The overt reactivity is habitual, so it's basically a matter of becoming aware of that habit and breaking it". Maybe the distinction is too subtle for you, as it is for Silver. To identify a habit and try to break it is not the same as coming to a new understanding about the cause of some behavior. The behavior of riding your camel out to the mirage to fill your canteen is not broken by practicing resistance and forcing yourself not to get on the camel. The behavior changes spontaneously and effortlessly by realizing there is no water in the mirage. Do you see the difference? Yep coming to an understanding is really the point of it really, so we're on the same page to that extent, but I'm speaking about the mechanism of the behavior directly, and you're talking about camels and mirages.
The first point I made was that reactionary behaviours are personal reactions to the qualia (or the feel of) experiences. I'll elaborate by saying that all the senses of the body and mind affect the nervous system, and that sensational experience where the disparaged senses unite and the sensational feeling is what is reacted to. A person doesn't react directly to a sound or a sight. They react to the sensational feeling that occurs within them. Are we still on the same page?
What word written on this forum isn't in some measure a response to a stimuli of some other word, image or other content that led to that response? The line between response and reactivity is both situational and fluid, though of course the duck test always applies ( (** blush ** ) ..). There is a difference between a conscious reaction and an unconscious one, but that topic would be a repeat of a recent dialog from elsewhere. You see, the deliberate attempt to evoke a reaction can be witnessed, and a conscious response to the fact of the attempts to evoke is different from an unconscious response to the attempts themselves.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 16:57:31 GMT -5
How do you see habit creating conditioning? I would say conditioning sometimes leads to habits. It would help if you gave me an example or two of what YOU mean by conditioning. I'm thinking that you mean the social conditioning by parents, communities, society but not sure. I already explained what I mean by conditioning: "Conditioning, in this context, includes the entirety of your experience, and influences your choices, perception, beliefs, feelings, etc." What you identify as 'you' is really nothing but conditioning. Everything you do and think comes from your conditioning, but not everything you do and think is a habit.
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 18:00:30 GMT -5
It would help if you gave me an example or two of what YOU mean by conditioning. I'm thinking that you mean the social conditioning by parents, communities, society but not sure. I already explained what I mean by conditioning: "Conditioning, in this context, includes the entirety of your experience, and influences your choices, perception, beliefs, feelings, etc." What you identify as 'you' is really nothing but conditioning. Everything you do and think comes from your conditioning, but not everything you do and think is a habit. Okay, but you're referring to conditioning being the person, in so many words here, whereas I'm referring to what causes conditioning. It doesn't just happen overnight. So in my view, we're talking about two different things, even though the word is the same. For me, the word habit and the word conditioning are almost synonymous. I forgot what the original question was.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 18:23:40 GMT -5
I already explained what I mean by conditioning: "Conditioning, in this context, includes the entirety of your experience, and influences your choices, perception, beliefs, feelings, etc." What you identify as 'you' is really nothing but conditioning. Everything you do and think comes from your conditioning, but not everything you do and think is a habit. Okay, but you're referring to conditioning being the person, in so many words here, whereas I'm referring to what causes conditioning. It doesn't just happen overnight. So in my view, we're talking about two different things, even though the word is the same. For me, the word habit and the word conditioning are almost synonymous. I forgot what the original question was. I referred to what 'causes' conditioning, and then noted that the person is not something more than that conditioning. If the second part confuses you, let it go for now. Every experience you have alters your conditioning; your beliefs, attitudes, fears, opinions, reactions, ideas... Of course it doesn't happen overnight. Conditioning is ongoing and changes continuously. (You were equating conditioning and habits)
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Post by silver on Jan 17, 2015 18:57:27 GMT -5
Okay, but you're referring to conditioning being the person, in so many words here, whereas I'm referring to what causes conditioning. It doesn't just happen overnight. So in my view, we're talking about two different things, even though the word is the same. For me, the word habit and the word conditioning are almost synonymous. I forgot what the original question was. I referred to what 'causes' conditioning, and then noted that the person is not something more than that conditioning. If the second part confuses you, let it go for now. Every experience you have alters your conditioning; your beliefs, attitudes, fears, opinions, reactions, ideas... Of course it doesn't happen overnight. Conditioning is ongoing and changes continuously. (You were equating conditioning and habits) Well, what I think I'm trying to say, is that habits (repetition) is a major part of what brings conditioning about in a person.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 20:52:25 GMT -5
I referred to what 'causes' conditioning, and then noted that the person is not something more than that conditioning. If the second part confuses you, let it go for now. Every experience you have alters your conditioning; your beliefs, attitudes, fears, opinions, reactions, ideas... Of course it doesn't happen overnight. Conditioning is ongoing and changes continuously. (You were equating conditioning and habits) Well, what I think I'm trying to say, is that habits (repetition) is a major part of what brings conditioning about in a person. I understand what you're saying.
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 17, 2015 21:50:51 GMT -5
The realization that there is no water in the mirage is predicated on an experience that reveals that actuality.. pity the person that dies of thirst believing the oasis was a mirage.. the first encounter with a mirage has no reference as to its actuality until that actuality is experienced, then attachment to the belief in mirages could lead to the unnecessary demise of the believer.. Yes, the nature of the physical metaphor is that the illusion can be revealed through verification of the physical actuality. Same with the snake/rope metaphor.The physical analogies are used because everyone can agree on the illusion and the actuality from personal experience. However, the most problematic illusions and beliefs cannot be seen through by investigating the physical actuality. The nature of a personal God is one example I think we can agree on. Actually, investigating physical actuality does reveal the absence of God, that idea exists only as mind-play, but.. attachment to those sorts of ideologies causes actions/deeds with tangible consequences, exerting tangible force/influence on the happening unfolding.. let go of the attachments and the ideologies, and unconditionally appropriate action is revealed..
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Post by lolly on Jan 17, 2015 22:15:38 GMT -5
Sure. The only point I have disagreement with is regarding habits. Ok, if we are agreeable on what is being reacted to, would you like to further discuss the deeper implications of that, or elaborate on your comment above?
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 22:25:14 GMT -5
Yes, the nature of the physical metaphor is that the illusion can be revealed through verification of the physical actuality. Same with the snake/rope metaphor.The physical analogies are used because everyone can agree on the illusion and the actuality from personal experience. However, the most problematic illusions and beliefs cannot be seen through by investigating the physical actuality. The nature of a personal God is one example I think we can agree on. Actually, investigating physical actuality does reveal the absence of God, that idea exists only as mind-play, but.. attachment to those sorts of ideologies causes actions/deeds with tangible consequences, exerting tangible force/influence on the happening unfolding.. let go of the attachments and the ideologies, and unconditionally appropriate action is revealed.. You can't prove the nonexistence of God.
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2015 22:27:50 GMT -5
Sure. The only point I have disagreement with is regarding habits. Ok, if we are agreeable on what is being reacted to, would you like to further discuss the deeper implications of that, or elaborate on your comment above? If you have a point you want to make about it, go ahead.
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Post by lolly on Jan 17, 2015 22:29:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty much always conscious of being highly vulnerable. Is there a point to this line of inquiry? I'm not sure we see vulnerable in the same way. If I was feeling highly vulnerable, then I would be conscious of a fight or flight mechanism running under the surface. I mean a comfortable vulnerability.. an openness.. ? That's what I meant, though if it's safe it's comfortable, and if it's perilous, not so much, but is there a point to this line of inquiry, or is a general interest thing?
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 17, 2015 22:41:26 GMT -5
Okay, but you're referring to conditioning being the person, in so many words here, whereas I'm referring to what causes conditioning. It doesn't just happen overnight. So in my view, we're talking about two different things, even though the word is the same. For me, the word habit and the word conditioning are almost synonymous. I forgot what the original question was. I referred to what 'causes' conditioning, and then noted that the person is not something more than that conditioning. If the second part confuses you, let it go for now. Every experience you have alters your conditioning; your beliefs, attitudes, fears, opinions, reactions, ideas... Of course it doesn't happen overnight. Conditioning is ongoing and changes continuously. (You were equating conditioning and habits) You're making some progress.. you've understood cause and effect, and you finally acknowledge 'time', the interval between events..
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Post by tzujanli on Jan 17, 2015 22:45:06 GMT -5
Actually, investigating physical actuality does reveal the absence of God, that idea exists only as mind-play, but.. attachment to those sorts of ideologies causes actions/deeds with tangible consequences, exerting tangible force/influence on the happening unfolding.. let go of the attachments and the ideologies, and unconditionally appropriate action is revealed.. You can't prove the nonexistence of God. I'm not interested in proving the nonexistence of God.. recall your realization/mirage/experience understanding...
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Post by figgles on Jan 17, 2015 23:03:54 GMT -5
I think one can realize that a reactionary behavior has faulty beliefs at it's basis, but at times, still continue to have the reactionary behavior rise up, out of habit...and thus, in the moment it arises, might become aware of what's happening, and re-connect with the understanding that "there is not actually any water out there" and thus, he unsaddles the camel and goes back to the tent to relax. There is usually a period in which mind is informed of the clarity gained in a particular realization, and this can take some time because of the complex dynamics of some beliefs , but it's not really the breaking of a 'programmed' habit, but rather still conditioning playing out. If the behavior is recognized and stopped, this is still conditioning that allows for the recognition. Habits are interesting critters, but I've talked about them a few times before, and I don't know if it's worth doing it again. Seems to me, that a habit is the playing out of conditioning, coupled with a certain degree of unconsciousness about that.
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