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Post by enigma on Dec 16, 2014 19:15:48 GMT -5
Oh, yes, if what we mean by the fall is falling into self delusion, and what we mean by sin is 'missing the mark', guilt is just a manipulation. The function of control is a primary design criteria of an institution, and the institutions that perpetuate are the ones that are well designed. Yeah, the Catholic church is a good example of excellent marketing and sales strategy. Create a need and then supply the solution. Anyone interested in going to heaven and living with God forever as opposed to burning in hell forever with an evil demon? We've got the tickets.
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Post by enigma on Dec 16, 2014 19:22:19 GMT -5
As I see it, when mind evolves in a species to the point where it is capable of self awareness, in a biological sense, it quite naturally begins to contemplate and conceptualize the self. Biological self awareness makes suffering possible, and simultaneously opens the door to the possibility of transcending that suffering in self realization. Most of humanity is currently caught between the two. In each child, the story of the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is played out. The concept of a separate self becomes established between age 2 and 3, (the terrible two's) and the child is 'evicted from paradise', or we could say innocence is lost. It's not a program, just a natural consequence of the expression of the sophisticated mind. What do you think about this slightly different view: We are always self-aware, and mind never becomes self aware. Mind can however become more and more complex. After the age of 2-3, mind becomes complex enough to generate sustained thoughts about an independent self. It also becomes complex enough to create numerous fictional scenarios about the future, the past, and even about the present. And awareness keeps 'watching' those thoughts - they can get pretty intense and interesting. Those thoughts are our creation; the mistake is to believe that's all we are - this is when we get 'lost' in the dream and 'evicted from paradise.' Hey, Porto, long time no see. Yeah, that's what I be sayin. When I say 'self awareness in a biological sense' I mean a brain that is sufficiently sophisticated to be used to contemplate the nature of self.
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Post by steven on Dec 16, 2014 23:12:46 GMT -5
But, how did we become such creatures with such sophisticated minds, and what triggered that and what triggers us to develop that way? The cosmos is intelligent, and this is what it does. It grows itself into creatures who develop self awareness, and then they start questioning what's going on. And talking to itself. Near as I can tell, the sole function of the intellect is to make it possible to define and describe with vocabulary, which we then share and debate until we produce a common vocabulary. Can anyone here think of any other function of the intellect that is not about Defining and Describing with Vocabulary at its lowest common denominator? :-) One might assume that vocabulary is a by-product of intellect, but maybe it's the sole purpose of intellect?
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Post by steven on Dec 16, 2014 23:18:46 GMT -5
DEFINE: 2. to explain or identify the nature or essential qualities of; describe
VOCABULARY: 2 a :a sum or stock of words employed by a language, group, individual, or work or in a field of knowledge b :a list or collection of terms or codes available for use (as in an indexing system)
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Post by laughter on Dec 16, 2014 23:21:58 GMT -5
The cosmos is intelligent, and this is what it does. It grows itself into creatures who develop self awareness, and then they start questioning what's going on. And talking to itself. Near as I can tell, the sole function of the intellect is define with vocabulary, which we then share and debate until we produce a common vocabulary. Can anyone here think of any other function of the intellect that is not about Defining and Vocabulary at its lowest common denominator? :-) The designs of the IC's and the software that allow you to post on this forum involved some serious creativity, discipline and culture preserved and transmitted over time. Now you can reduce that to definition and vocabulary if you like but if you do you leave alot on the cutting room floor.
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Post by steven on Dec 16, 2014 23:28:31 GMT -5
And talking to itself. Near as I can tell, the sole function of the intellect is define with vocabulary, which we then share and debate until we produce a common vocabulary. Can anyone here think of any other function of the intellect that is not about Defining and Vocabulary at its lowest common denominator? :-) The designs of the IC's and the software that allow you to post on this forum involved some serious creativity, discipline and culture preserved and transmitted over time. Now you can reduce that to definition and vocabulary if you like but if you do you leave alot on the cutting room floor. Certainly experience is what would be left on the cutting room floor if we only focussed on vocabulary...but here we are talking about the nature of intellect, which seems to be all about vocabulary and producing or rendering an experience into a communicable medium. Everything you just described, the accomplishment of it, is vocabulary....bianary code is after all: a vocabulary the creativity you describe there seems to be the intellect forming a particular (situational) vocabulary for communication. The experience exists without the vocabulary that our intellect builds to describe the experience....and yet, the intellect still mechanates to create all that vocabulary....kinda like it's bigger than all of us lol Meant to be and all that.
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Post by laughter on Dec 16, 2014 23:38:06 GMT -5
The designs of the IC's and the software that allow you to post on this forum involved some serious creativity, discipline and culture preserved and transmitted over time. Now you can reduce that to definition and vocabulary if you like but if you do you leave alot on the cutting room floor. Certainly experience is what would be left on the cutting room floor if we only focussed on vocabulary...but here we are talking about the nature of intellect, which seems to be all about vocabulary and producing or rendering an experience into a communicable medium. Everything you just described, the accomplishment of it, is vocabulary....bianary code is after all: a vocabulary the creativity you describe there seems to be the intellect forming a particular (situational) vocabulary for communication. The experience exists without the vocabulary that our intellect builds to describe the experience....and yet, the intellect still mechanates to create all that vocabulary....kinda like it's bigger than all of us lol Meant to be and all that. The intellect is just a tool of and for the creation.
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2014 0:20:21 GMT -5
The cosmos is intelligent, and this is what it does. It grows itself into creatures who develop self awareness, and then they start questioning what's going on. And talking to itself. Near as I can tell, the sole function of the intellect is to make it possible to define and describe with vocabulary, which we then share and debate until we produce a common vocabulary. Can anyone here think of any other function of the intellect that is not about Defining and Describing with Vocabulary at its lowest common denominator? :-) One might assume that vocabulary is a by-product of intellect, but maybe it's the sole purpose of intellect? Yeah, intellect is a problem solver, a form of creativity, an imaginer, the source of reason. Without intellect there would be no social progress, no science, no law, no economy, no technology, no cell phones, microwave ovens or internet forums. We would still be swinging from trees, which is fine if you're into that sort of thing.
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Post by silver on Dec 17, 2014 0:38:34 GMT -5
And talking to itself. Near as I can tell, the sole function of the intellect is to make it possible to define and describe with vocabulary, which we then share and debate until we produce a common vocabulary. Can anyone here think of any other function of the intellect that is not about Defining and Describing with Vocabulary at its lowest common denominator? :-) One might assume that vocabulary is a by-product of intellect, but maybe it's the sole purpose of intellect? Yeah, intellect is a problem solver, a form of creativity, an imaginer, the source of reason. Without intellect there would be no social progress, no science, no law, no economy, no technology, no cell phones, microwave ovens or internet forums. We would still be swinging from trees, which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. Good one, frog.
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Post by steven on Dec 17, 2014 0:47:32 GMT -5
And talking to itself. Near as I can tell, the sole function of the intellect is to make it possible to define and describe with vocabulary, which we then share and debate until we produce a common vocabulary. Can anyone here think of any other function of the intellect that is not about Defining and Describing with Vocabulary at its lowest common denominator? :-) One might assume that vocabulary is a by-product of intellect, but maybe it's the sole purpose of intellect? Yeah, intellect is a problem solver, a form of creativity, an imaginer, the source of reason. Without intellect there would be no social progress, no science, no law, no economy, no technology, no cell phones, microwave ovens or internet forums. We would still be swinging from trees, which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. In my experience, and I think that Zendancer might agree, the Intellect is not needed for problem solving at all. At the moment, I cannot think of anything that cannot be done without the intellect, except describing, defining, and vocabulary... Certainly without the intellect our experience would be fundamentally different, almost certainly our "social" accomplishments may be different and we may not have cell phones, microwave ovens, and technology, but maybe that's not even accurate. Problem solving does not seem to need intellect, but communicating the 'problem', collaborating on it, and creating a common consensus vocabulary so that many can share in the problem and solution DOES seem to require Intellect.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2014 7:46:28 GMT -5
Yeah, intellect is a problem solver, a form of creativity, an imaginer, the source of reason. Without intellect there would be no social progress, no science, no law, no economy, no technology, no cell phones, microwave ovens or internet forums. We would still be swinging from trees, which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. In my experience, and I think that Zendancer might agree, the Intellect is not needed for problem solving at all. At the moment, I cannot think of anything that cannot be done without the intellect, except describing, defining, and vocabulary... Certainly without the intellect our experience would be fundamentally different, almost certainly our "social" accomplishments may be different and we may not have cell phones, microwave ovens, and technology, but maybe that's not even accurate. Problem solving does not seem to need intellect, but communicating the 'problem', collaborating on it, and creating a common consensus vocabulary so that many can share in the problem and solution DOES seem to require Intellect. No, I'd be with E. on this. The intellect allows us to create an abstract meta-reality in the mind which we can then manipulate for an infinite number of purposes--"seeing" hypothetical futures and planning for them, designing tools, building bridges, etc. I can stop thinking at will, and go get a cup of coffee at McD without thinking, but I can't design a better mouse trap without thinking. The intellect is necessary for solving all creative problem solving which requires abstract symbolization and imaging. "Seeing" the benzene ring as an image in the mind, or the double helix, required the intellect. Walking through an unbuilt construction project in my head and "seeing" how to manipulate the spaces, improve the aesthetic effect, and anticipate hypothetical future issues requires an intellect. Communication with other people magnifies the power of the intellect through collaborative effort, but personal imagination is the basis for that.
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2014 12:15:13 GMT -5
Yeah, intellect is a problem solver, a form of creativity, an imaginer, the source of reason. Without intellect there would be no social progress, no science, no law, no economy, no technology, no cell phones, microwave ovens or internet forums. We would still be swinging from trees, which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. In my experience, and I think that Zendancer might agree, the Intellect is not needed for problem solving at all. At the moment, I cannot think of anything that cannot be done without the intellect, except describing, defining, and vocabulary... Certainly without the intellect our experience would be fundamentally different, almost certainly our "social" accomplishments may be different and we may not have cell phones, microwave ovens, and technology, but maybe that's not even accurate. Problem solving does not seem to need intellect, but communicating the 'problem', collaborating on it, and creating a common consensus vocabulary so that many can share in the problem and solution DOES seem to require Intellect. It depends on what we mean by problem solving. Since the structure of our society is intellect based, it's often necessary to engage intellect in order to participate. (i.e. mathematics is required to some extent in most jobs, along with the communication skills you mention) I would agree that if man lived a simple life, integrated with nature in much the same way as the other animals, intellect would not be needed, hence the allusion to swinging from trees. I also agree that thinking is required far less than it is generally imagined, but you go way to far when you say it is only required for communication.
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Post by Portto on Dec 18, 2014 7:34:29 GMT -5
What do you think about this slightly different view: We are always self-aware, and mind never becomes self aware. Mind can however become more and more complex. After the age of 2-3, mind becomes complex enough to generate sustained thoughts about an independent self. It also becomes complex enough to create numerous fictional scenarios about the future, the past, and even about the present. And awareness keeps 'watching' those thoughts - they can get pretty intense and interesting. Those thoughts are our creation; the mistake is to believe that's all we are - this is when we get 'lost' in the dream and 'evicted from paradise.' Actually that sounds pretty good....ever since Eve hood-winked Adam in the garden of Eden, its been hell...oh, I want that rib back...Satan's fan girl... It's not easy dealing with Eve/separation...
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Post by Portto on Dec 18, 2014 7:38:57 GMT -5
What do you think about this slightly different view: We are always self-aware, and mind never becomes self aware. Mind can however become more and more complex. After the age of 2-3, mind becomes complex enough to generate sustained thoughts about an independent self. It also becomes complex enough to create numerous fictional scenarios about the future, the past, and even about the present. And awareness keeps 'watching' those thoughts - they can get pretty intense and interesting. Those thoughts are our creation; the mistake is to believe that's all we are - this is when we get 'lost' in the dream and 'evicted from paradise.' Hey, Porto, long time no see. Yeah, that's what I be sayin. When I say 'self awareness in a biological sense' I mean a brain that is sufficiently sophisticated to be used to contemplate the nature of self. Hey Enigma, nice to see you keeping the pointers oriented in the proper direction! The 'dream' can get amazingly busy at times - without any garden in sight.
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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2014 19:27:47 GMT -5
Hey, Porto, long time no see. Yeah, that's what I be sayin. When I say 'self awareness in a biological sense' I mean a brain that is sufficiently sophisticated to be used to contemplate the nature of self. Hey Enigma, nice to see you keeping the pointers oriented in the proper direction! The 'dream' can get amazingly busy at times - without any garden in sight. **Scurrying around trying to keep all the arrows pointed toward Nirvana**
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