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Post by earnest on Nov 8, 2014 4:18:47 GMT -5
Not sure how to put this into a statement/question, but we'll see how it goes. Also, it seems like a no-brainer question, but its kind of stuck with me.
Would you agree that the knowing is "more important" than what is known?
ie,. what's happening is secondary to knowing what's happening.
I think this is kind of touching on the idea that there is nothing better than right now (cos anything else is just memory/imaginings) so regardless of what is happening (and whether I like it or not), job number one is the thorough knowing of it.
And,. by "knowing" I mean open non-judgmental awareness, surrender to " "
The Krishnamurti exchange/quote comes to mind as well.
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Post by earnest on Nov 8, 2014 4:23:06 GMT -5
I think in the typing of the question, the answer is becoming obvious,..
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Post by earnest on Nov 8, 2014 4:23:34 GMT -5
nighty night *yawn*.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 5:15:47 GMT -5
Let the dawn bring with it what, if anything you need to know..
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 8, 2014 9:10:24 GMT -5
Not sure how to put this into a statement/question, but we'll see how it goes. Also, it seems like a no-brainer question, but its kind of stuck with me. Would you agree that the knowing is "more important" than what is known? ie,. what's happening is secondary to knowing what's happening. I think this is kind of touching on the idea that there is nothing better than right now (cos anything else is just memory/imaginings) so regardless of what is happening (and whether I like it or not), job number one is the thorough knowing of it. And,. by "knowing" I mean open non-judgmental awareness, surrender to " " The Krishnamurti exchange/quote comes to mind as well. Without the happening there is no knowing of it.. 'knowing and known' are inseperable, and freedom from the known is liberation.. JK's not minding what happens is the pristine clarity, acknowledging isness without attachment or misconception.. By 'knowing' i mean experiencing what 'is' without shaping that information to suit limited understandings.. allowing the information revealed by the experience to integrate with our understanding without the mind's biased intervention..
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Post by Reefs on Nov 8, 2014 12:48:34 GMT -5
Not sure how to put this into a statement/question, but we'll see how it goes. Also, it seems like a no-brainer question, but its kind of stuck with me. Would you agree that the knowing is "more important" than what is known? ie,. what's happening is secondary to knowing what's happening. I think this is kind of touching on the idea that there is nothing better than right now (cos anything else is just memory/imaginings) so regardless of what is happening (and whether I like it or not), job number one is the thorough knowing of it. And,. by "knowing" I mean open non-judgmental awareness, surrender to " " The Krishnamurti exchange/quote comes to mind as well. "You cannot be aware; you and awareness cannot co-exist. If you could be in a state of awareness for one second by the clock, once in your life, the continuity would be snapped, the illusion of the experiencing structure, the 'you', would collapse, and everything would fall into the natural rhythm. In this state you do not know what you are looking at -- that is awareness. If you recognize what you are looking at, you are there, again experiencing the old, what you know." - UG. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/3760/daily-quotes?page=2#ixzz3IV5KpRXU
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Post by zendancer on Nov 8, 2014 13:22:15 GMT -5
Not sure how to put this into a statement/question, but we'll see how it goes. Also, it seems like a no-brainer question, but its kind of stuck with me. Would you agree that the knowing is "more important" than what is known? ie,. what's happening is secondary to knowing what's happening. I think this is kind of touching on the idea that there is nothing better than right now (cos anything else is just memory/imaginings) so regardless of what is happening (and whether I like it or not), job number one is the thorough knowing of it. And,. by "knowing" I mean open non-judgmental awareness, surrender to " " The Krishnamurti exchange/quote comes to mind as well. Earnest: This may be a semantic issue, or a misunderstanding of your intent, but I would say that what's happening is always primary, and that knowing, or ideas about what's happening, are always secondary. The second half of your post seems to point to the primacy of "what is," and the total acceptance of it irrespective of any intellection. I think Tzu is making the same point.
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Post by Beingist on Nov 8, 2014 21:24:10 GMT -5
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Post by Ishtahota on Nov 9, 2014 1:48:12 GMT -5
When I refer to the knowing, it is taping into something about people, places and things, threw focus of intent. This knowledge comes from a connection to our spirit, higher-self or what ever you wish to call it. It is not something that comes from books, teachers, or personal experience gained in the physical world. When we go into ceremony to work with people on healing, or personal issues, or what ever, we just simply focus our intent to know the person, or to know what causes a person to be the way that they are. It is not really thinking as the world knows it or has been trained. As an example; lets say that someone has come to us with certain issues that they cannot face or resolve. We look at them and we focus our intent to know them. For me an event that has happened in their life will flash before my eyes. I will see what event causes the person to be the way that they are today and I can even give them the first and last name of the person that has harmed them. The knowing for us is not something that is learned. It is in all of us, it is part of us. The trick is learning how to tap into that side of ourselves. I tell people that the mind is not a terrible thing to waste. When it comes to spirit work a mind is just plane terrible, period. Ceremony for us is the language of the sub-conscious. The ceremony helps to get the mind and the ego out of the way so that the knowing can come threw.
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Post by earnest on Nov 10, 2014 4:26:04 GMT -5
Not sure how to put this into a statement/question, but we'll see how it goes. Also, it seems like a no-brainer question, but its kind of stuck with me. Would you agree that the knowing is "more important" than what is known? ie,. what's happening is secondary to knowing what's happening. I think this is kind of touching on the idea that there is nothing better than right now (cos anything else is just memory/imaginings) so regardless of what is happening (and whether I like it or not), job number one is the thorough knowing of it. And,. by "knowing" I mean open non-judgmental awareness, surrender to " " The Krishnamurti exchange/quote comes to mind as well. Earnest: This may be a semantic issue, or a misunderstanding of your intent, but I would say that what's happening is always primary, and that knowing, or ideas about what's happening, are always secondary. The second half of your post seems to point to the primacy of "what is," and the total acceptance of it irrespective of any intellection. I think Tzu is making the same point. I think I just got myself caught up in some word salad... I was wondering if the open knowing of what was happening was more important than whatever events were happening. ie, that knowing I'm frustrated by a particular situation at work is "more valuable" from some kind of spiritual perspective than the events at work themselves - that doesn't make any sense now that I revisit it. From what you and Tzu are saying I can see that what is actually happening is the primary thing (and of course that the thing and the knowing of it can't be separated as you can't have one without the other) and that ideas about what's happening are secondary (because the ideas about what's happening are just mental creations - and not actually happening) All good, thanks all
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Post by laughter on Nov 10, 2014 12:41:37 GMT -5
Earnest: This may be a semantic issue, or a misunderstanding of your intent, but I would say that what's happening is always primary, and that knowing, or ideas about what's happening, are always secondary. The second half of your post seems to point to the primacy of "what is," and the total acceptance of it irrespective of any intellection. I think Tzu is making the same point. I think I just got myself caught up in some word salad... I was wondering if the open knowing of what was happening was more important than whatever events were happening. ie, that knowing I'm frustrated by a particular situation at work is "more valuable" from some kind of spiritual perspective than the events at work themselves - that doesn't make any sense now that I revisit it. From what you and Tzu are saying I can see that what is actually happening is the primary thing (and of course that the thing and the knowing of it can't be separated as you can't have one without the other) and that ideas about what's happening are secondary (because the ideas about what's happening are just mental creations - and not actually happening) All good, thanks all Always a pleasure to hear from you Earnie!
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Post by steven on Nov 13, 2014 22:33:38 GMT -5
I think in the typing of the question, the answer is becoming obvious,.. Only go straight, and not know... In that quote, knowing means to define, to categorize, to recognize....only be direct in what you do and how you experience, without imagining boundaries upon the boundless
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Post by earnest on Nov 14, 2014 3:54:21 GMT -5
I think in the typing of the question, the answer is becoming obvious,.. Only go straight, and not know... In that quote, knowing means to define, to categorize, to recognize....only be direct in what you do and how you experience, without imagining boundaries upon the boundless Thanks Steve At that point, I was not going straight,. and I was trying to know! At the moment I seem to be going through a stronger phase of what I think ZD has referred to as self-checking (or something like that). When I was driving the kids home from school, the usual ATA was happening, but then I noticed I wasn't really ATA'ing at all,.. I was *thinking* about ATA'ing! Still noticing what was arising,. but it was like I was parsing everything coming through in some kind of attempt to find something - GraspAta I'll call it - was very tiring...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 14, 2014 10:06:45 GMT -5
Not sure how to put this into a statement/question, but we'll see how it goes. Also, it seems like a no-brainer question, but its kind of stuck with me. Would you agree that the knowing is "more important" than what is known? ie,. what's happening is secondary to knowing what's happening. I think this is kind of touching on the idea that there is nothing better than right now (cos anything else is just memory/imaginings) so regardless of what is happening (and whether I like it or not), job number one is the thorough knowing of it. And,. by "knowing" I mean open non-judgmental awareness, surrender to " " The Krishnamurti exchange/quote comes to mind as well. Earnest: This may be a semantic issue, or a misunderstanding of your intent, but I would say that what's happening is always primary, and that knowing, or ideas about what's happening, are always secondary. The second half of your post seems to point to the primacy of "what is," and the total acceptance of it irrespective of any intellection. I think Tzu is making the same point. The pertinent question here is, what allows, what brings correct clear perception of what is? As long as ego exists, it will always distort what's out there. IOW, what out there will necessarily have to ~pass through~ the filter of ego. So, if it is possible to just observe what is, sure, that's primary. But say you wish to ~just observe~ your interaction with your "mother-in-law". Your mother-in-law is overbearing, a know-it-all, constantly tries to fix all problems, knows how to fix all problems, especially knows how to fix all the problems of son (or daughter), your spouse. And ~you~ have an opinion about all that, you, of course, see mother-in-law as the problem. So on the one hand mother-in-law sees herself as the ultimate fixer-I-know-it-all and you see mother-in-law as the ultimate problem. But M-in-L sees everything through the filter of her ego, and you see everything through the filter of your ego. So two people are not having a relationship, two egos are embattled. So, in such a heated relationship, the knowing is what's primary because it's just not possible to see clearly what's actually happening. Ego-"knowing" is what's causing the distortion. Ego is not allowing clear perception. Now, instead of mother-in-law we could put any number of people, spouse, brother, sister, co-worker, father, mother. Somebody out there just irritates the hell out of you.....but you can't see that you are as much the problem as the other person is. So what's the answer? You have to observe yourself, you become subject, you have to observe yourself impartially. There cannot be clear seeing until ego is seen to be the problem and ego can't be seen to be the problem until ego is seen. So the ~knowing-of-ego~ is what's primary. .......So, essentially ATA has to be turned inward (called self-observation)....and this is not so easy. It is so much easier to AT-exterior-A. earnest has found this out.......... sdp
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 14, 2014 10:19:50 GMT -5
Only go straight, and not know... In that quote, knowing means to define, to categorize, to recognize....only be direct in what you do and how you experience, without imagining boundaries upon the boundless Thanks Steve At that point, I was not going straight,. and I was trying to know! At the moment I seem to be going through a stronger phase of what I think ZD has referred to as self-checking (or something like that). When I was driving the kids home from school, the usual ATA was happening, but then I noticed I wasn't really ATA'ing at all,.. I was *thinking* about ATA'ing! Still noticing what was arising,. but it was like I was parsing everything coming through in some kind of attempt to find something - GraspAta I'll call it - was very tiring... earnest, all this shows you are actually doing what we are always talking and writing about, at least you are attempting it. ATA is simple but not easy. We don't think of self as ego, we just think of self, as me. This parsing of everything is just ego doing its normal job, it's just what ~ we~ do. Now you have to notice when ego jumps in to parse (which is always). So now what's more important? ATA or actually observing the parsing? First you see that ego has jumped up to take center stage (ATA interiorly), and then ATA. In months or maybe even years, ego stops jumping up so quickly, the state of attending becomes more primary than this silly little interfering ego-thinking-thingy. ...........And then you can love your "mother-in-law", in spite of who she is........ sdp
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