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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 9:52:42 GMT -5
Do you mean you didn't follow this or that you didn't follow her writing that was the set-up? My guess is that you didn't follow what I wrote, and if so that wouldn't surprise me. If that's the case, are you interested in a breakdown? Gnaw, lets let it go. attachment is debilitating
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Post by figgles on Sept 6, 2014 10:44:45 GMT -5
Celebrating individuality is a far cry from being attached to the trappings of individuation. Attachment to the trappings results in neediness. What I"m suggesting with the term "celebrating individuality' happens when emotional needs fall away. Oh, so this celebration has nothing to do with emotion? I would say it's positively rife with emotion, with each and every nuance of such being welcomed and allowed fully.
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Post by silver on Sept 6, 2014 11:23:24 GMT -5
attachment is debilitating It certainly is, Ollie.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2014 11:57:56 GMT -5
Do you mean you didn't follow this or that you didn't follow her writing that was the set-up? My guess is that you didn't follow what I wrote, and if so that wouldn't surprise me. If that's the case, are you interested in a breakdown? Gnaw, lets let it go. Sure. The way I see it there are some good reasons that came out as opaque as it did, but I've got no interest in making myself understood unless the intended reader is curious as to what it means.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2014 11:58:51 GMT -5
Oh, so this celebration has nothing to do with emotion? I would say it's positively rife with emotion, with each and every nuance of such being welcomed and allowed fully. Exactly, yes. But what if the celebration wasn't going on? How would that make you feel?
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2014 12:00:50 GMT -5
There's a bit of the killjoy set-up going on here because while I can't disagree with your statement that "Oneness is not experiential", the mind hook on this is that it is the experiences of ideas, emotions and other stimuli that eventually point a peep toward "Oneness". So anyone who values devotion or service, or sees the nobility of suffering, and still is in the process of informing mind, has the potential to set you up in opposition, as figgles does here, to the wonder and the beauty that's available in every moment in the realization of the absence of separation. For many in the audience, it won't matter that what's really on offer in the subtext is a preservation of that separation. Let the killjoy hearings begin...
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Post by figgles on Sept 6, 2014 12:07:36 GMT -5
I would say it's positively rife with emotion, with each and every nuance of such being welcomed and allowed fully. Exactly, yes. But what if the celebration wasn't going on? How would that make you feel? In using the term 'celebration' I'm referencing a way of being that has freedom/liberation at it's helm. In my experience, The way one comes to fall in love with life to celebrate every aspect of it, is when the fear of emotional suffering falls away. So long as that fear is absent, there's a seeing of the perfection of it all, and there's a sense of awe and gratitude for the fact that somehow 'this' is happening, the celebration will continue. (fwiw, I'm not necessarily speaking here of throwing confetti, laughing and dancing amidst balloons and party favors here..but more just deeply loving life). If that ended, then it would be likely that fear had entered back into the picture again. How I'd feel would then depend upon what kind of clarity there was about that and whether or not the fear remained.
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2014 12:48:27 GMT -5
attachment is debilitating The alternative is to simply discuss it, (no attachment implied) but I'm already tiring of Fig's DWADish debating style.
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2014 12:50:03 GMT -5
Sure. The way I see it there are some good reasons that came out as opaque as it did, but I've got no interest in making myself understood unless the intended reader is curious as to what it means. Cool.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2014 13:10:15 GMT -5
Exactly, yes. But what if the celebration wasn't going on? How would that make you feel? In using the term 'celebration' I'm referencing a way of being that has freedom/liberation at it's helm. In my experience, The way one comes to fall in love with life to celebrate every aspect of it, is when the fear of emotional suffering falls away. So long as that fear is absent, there's a seeing of the perfection of it all, and there's a sense of awe and gratitude for the fact that somehow 'this' is happening, the celebration will continue. (fwiw, I'm not necessarily speaking here of throwing confetti, laughing and dancing amidst balloons and party favors here..but more just deeply loving life). If that ended, then it would be likely that fear had entered back into the picture again. How I'd feel would then depend upon what kind of clarity there was about that and whether or not the fear remained. So it's either love or fear? Hmmm... sounds like a see-saw to me, even though I like and can somewhat relate to your description of the ongoing experience. How long can the celebration last? Forever? For the rest of your life? How can this celebration possibly not implicate attachment?
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Post by figgles on Sept 6, 2014 13:49:34 GMT -5
In using the term 'celebration' I'm referencing a way of being that has freedom/liberation at it's helm. In my experience, The way one comes to fall in love with life to celebrate every aspect of it, is when the fear of emotional suffering falls away. So long as that fear is absent, there's a seeing of the perfection of it all, and there's a sense of awe and gratitude for the fact that somehow 'this' is happening, the celebration will continue. (fwiw, I'm not necessarily speaking here of throwing confetti, laughing and dancing amidst balloons and party favors here..but more just deeply loving life). If that ended, then it would be likely that fear had entered back into the picture again. How I'd feel would then depend upon what kind of clarity there was about that and whether or not the fear remained. So it's either love or fear? Hmmm... sounds like a see-saw to me, even though I like and can somewhat relate to your description of the ongoing experience. How long can the celebration last? Forever? For the rest of your life? How can this celebration possibly not implicate attachment?YOu might as well be asking, "Is happiness for no particular reason, possible" or "Is unconditional ease, peace, joy possible'? When a 'reason' is no longer needed to experience a sense that life is really really good, the celebration bit comes easy.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2014 14:01:35 GMT -5
So it's either love or fear? Hmmm... sounds like a see-saw to me, even though I like and can somewhat relate to your description of the ongoing experience. How long can the celebration last? Forever? For the rest of your life? How can this celebration possibly not implicate attachment?YOu might as well be asking, "Is happiness for no particular reason, possible" or "Is unconditional ease, peace, joy possible'? When a 'reason' is no longer needed to experience a sense that life is really really good, the celebration bit comes easy. There's a lightness to being absent existential dread and at any instant, with just a good deep breath and a silent look around, the aliveness of the world can shine from even the dustiest and dirtiest of corners. Even when there is pain, even when the life situation has turned south, there you are. There's no attaching to this, but a celebration implies a party, and every party has an end.
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Post by figgles on Sept 6, 2014 14:09:24 GMT -5
YOu might as well be asking, "Is happiness for no particular reason, possible" or "Is unconditional ease, peace, joy possible'? When a 'reason' is no longer needed to experience a sense that life is really really good, the celebration bit comes easy. There's a lightness to being absent existential dread and at any instant, with just a good deep breath and a silent look around, the aliveness of the world can shine from even the dustiest and dirtiest of corners. Even when there is pain, even when the life situation has turned south, there you are. There's no attaching to this, but a celebration implies a party, and every party has an end. I agree with all you say there other than the last bit. Do you have an aversion to the idea of an ongoing, deep love affair with life..? If not, substitute that term for the term 'celebrating.' 'celebration' is a flowery word, subjectively descriptive word..flowery words are best 'felt' rather than made mince-meat of.
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Post by laughter on Sept 6, 2014 14:28:46 GMT -5
There's a lightness to being absent existential dread and at any instant, with just a good deep breath and a silent look around, the aliveness of the world can shine from even the dustiest and dirtiest of corners. Even when there is pain, even when the life situation has turned south, there you are. There's no attaching to this, but a celebration implies a party, and every party has an end. I agree with all you say there other than the last bit. Do you have an aversion to the idea of an ongoing, deep love affair with life..? If not, substitute that term for the term 'celebrating.' 'celebration' is a flowery word, subjectively descriptive word..flowery words are best 'felt' rather than made mince-meat of. ha! ha! it all must go! nothing to be left unshredded! "Celebration" both literally sets me up in opposition as a party-pooper and implies that you've reached some sort of state where there are no more negative emotions. That it's the individual that is being celebrated of course necessarily renders the whole affair a masked fantasy ball.
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2014 15:31:51 GMT -5
YOu might as well be asking, "Is happiness for no particular reason, possible" or "Is unconditional ease, peace, joy possible'? When a 'reason' is no longer needed to experience a sense that life is really really good, the celebration bit comes easy. There's a lightness to being absent existential dread and at any instant, with just a good deep breath and a silent look around, the aliveness of the world can shine from even the dustiest and dirtiest of corners. Even when there is pain, even when the life situation has turned south, there you are. There's no attaching to this, but a celebration implies a party, and every party has an end. I say everything can happen from a place of Peace, and it's more than enough. The reason peeps perk up when they hear about celebrating life or loving life or blissful joy is that they're so often caught up in struggling with life and feeling miserable or bored. If that doesn't happen, there not so much attraction to put on the dancin shoes and celebrate, though that can spontaneously happen too. Folks don't realize the power and extent of their own self created misery, and what it means to simply stop doing that, and nothing more. That's the only place where emotional need comes to an end, not in the midst of celebrating. In the absence of that need comes genuine Love and Peace and Freedom that most have never known, and so they don't know they want it, and certainly don't know they ARE it.
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