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Post by zendancer on Mar 14, 2014 8:26:57 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp Might I suggest that with your present world view and belief system still intact, you appear to still be trying to understand something, that there is some purpose to be achieved. You still think there is something missing from your collection of ideas because something seems amiss ?AHEM?, therefore you're asking such questions. In your mind, this gives your sense of separation (i.e., from god ) some feeling of objective validity, but you simply cannot point out where that separation exists outside of the very ideas you use to define your purpose (i.e., separate existence). Using purpose to achieve purposelessness is where you could be heading, but of course, that is actually the realization of an absence of purpose. Your mind will come up with plenty of reasons why it simply could not be so, and you are likely to get caught up in that very story, thus maintaining the illusion of your prison of belief Iin separation. But, then again, perhaps your sincere enough in ratcheting up your self-consciousness to just beyond lightspeed, ending up out HERE, looking in at the wondrous drama of life being co-created with the quality of consciousness with which YOU imbue it. Let's see what happens. Perfectly so! Hi SomeNothing.
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Post by Ishtahota on Mar 14, 2014 8:39:15 GMT -5
Duality, the Earth Mind, a life under the control of the ego, a defalt setting for when we cause so much inner conflict that we cannot live with ourselves. A split in our consciousness, and evolution follows by splitting our brain. Can a two way radio work properly when it is split in half or in more pieces? How can we have conscious contact when we are broken? Without our connection to higherself, the universe and so on, our knowledfe has to be learned, threw trial and error, from reading, going to school and such.
We know what makes this world work and work well, and when we go against our inner guidance we are cut off from that guidance. It is at that point that the ego can take over and gain control. It builds many traps with it's intilect. Traps which keep us away from the very things that we seek and long for. Building shadows and pure reflections of what it is that that we really do seek.
Why duality? I always think about having all knowledge of all things, but what good is that without experience. Thousands and thousands of years to play out all of these different ways of doing things so that we can know for ourselves what does and does not work.
I do not know how many people have read books or listened to teachers as opposed to having the experience for themselves, but having the experience yourself is always different from listening to what others have experienced. Having said that, I can only share what I have experienced.
The times that I have been popped open and/or taken across the veil I did have a strong sense of being one with all things, but at no time did I ever loose the sense of being an individual.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 10:59:46 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp what is the purpose of me making a painting? enjoying a fruit? swinging in a swing? i know, this is not the answer you want JOY, 1985 oil on canvas but it may be the only one that works and keeps you happy at the same time...the blasted monkey asked the one question that can not be answered. just dance the dance an intellectual answer can only be admitted if its contrary is admitted as well gonna do it anyway we were blissful monkeys, living in the here and now,until the left side of the brain started developing, (animal proteine may have had to do with that) (apple, serpent, symbolism may be) spirit, already involved into matter,(like a seed) evolves out of it, to become immortal,to re-become itself, in matter...shapeshifting lies ahead of us... 1)god the transcendent,(holy ghost) doesnt care what we do--we can tune into ´´him´´´´it´´and that makes us feel good, and helps with life going smoothly.Ego makes tuning in difficult,as yet.(in evolution,humans just got here) 2)God the personal brahman (the father)(´´i am everything´´, but there is no more ´´I´´) 3)Soul (is the Son) is a product of evolution and your personal, private part of God, separate and yet one... you experience your own divinity--and the lack of it in others and yourself-- but this is an intellectual impossibility--you cant be one and separate at the same time...(yet even jesus said so--) but hey ,that´s Infinity for you...it defies all logic. there are many levels of ´´soul´´ very young ones and very evolved ones.This is where we got the notion that ´´god´´ cares because his ´´messengers´´ seemed to care.(KRSNA,JESUS,BUDDHA)...(and they were ´´one with the Father´´´so...)(i know, buddha wasnt, etc. etc.) still, nature needs 7 billion people to create a few thousand ´´enlightened ´´ones, who knock each other over the head about who is ´´enlightened ´´and who isnt...what a mess I like what Some Nothing says, the second alinea, i would add that you are free to add any kind of belief, as you cant escape belief wether you like it or not (even Tzu believed some guy, who made him dance tai chi 20.000 times,and colored his outlook)---and add a goal to your life (flexible, wide and disinterested) so you have some parameters within which you can play around with it...you become co-creator---it will be much more satisfactory. anyways, that is how i approach it knowledge,( a philosophy wide enough to embrace - understand- everything - based on experience--(i believe the sun will come up tomorrow-kind of ´´belief´´) love, developing the individual consciousness, Soul, your divine portion, which can actually grow, only in matter and life, (and which, one can say, is the sole purpose, conquering mind,life and body to be(come) what was not there before) work--to make the realisations real one needs to ACT in/on them, carry nirvana into daily life, overwriting engravings of the past..opening up space for the cells to live a new reality--your physical experience of the blissfull infinite)GOD is a very physical guy/gal. when you place a context, you will experience and learn and grow within that context...Your personal power-(read amount of consciousness)and that of your allies--will make it so it is our job to make god stop do nasty things one of the reasons i want to leave the forum, is like :when a doctor is performing an operation ,he doesnt really need a nurse beside him telling him that evrything he does is ´´wrong´´, or that he can not do what he wants to do...(f.i. because it wasnt done before)or because some prophet of old told him so... the magic of infinity is, that you can shift into another world where these critters do no longer exist incredible (at the same time,i am grateful for the amount of space i got here on the forum, after i got Tzu off my back)(he was blaming me for guru worship and guru marketing, blind as he was to his own guru worship and marketing, much worse than me actually)
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Post by zendancer on Mar 14, 2014 11:22:39 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp what is the purpose of me making a painting? enjoying a fruit? swinging in a swing? i know, this is not the answer you want JOY, 1985 oil on canvas but it may be the only one that works and keeps you happy at the same time...the blasted monkey asked the one question that can not be answered. just dance the dance an intellectual answer can only be admitted if its contrary is admitted as well gonna do it anyway we were blissful monkeys, living in the here and now,until the left side of the brain started developing, (animal proteine may have had to do with that) (apple, serpent, symbolism may be) spirit, already involved into matter,(like a seed) evolves out of it, to become immortal,to re-become itself, in matter...shapeshifting lies ahead of us... 1)god the transcendent,(holy ghost) doesnt care what we do--we can tune into ´´him´´´´it´´and that makes us feel good, and helps with life going smoothly.Ego makes tuning in difficult,as yet.(in evolution,humans just got here) 2)God the personal brahman (the father)(´´i am everything´´, but there is no more ´´I´´) 3)Soul (is the Son) is a product of evolution and your personal, private part of God, separate and yet one... you experience your own divinity--and the lack of it in others and yourself-- but this is an intellectual impossibility--you cant be one and separate at the same time...(yet even jesus said so--) but hey ,that´s Infinity for you...it defies all logic. there are many levels of ´´soul´´ very young ones and very evolved ones.This is where we got the notion that ´´god´´ cares because his ´´messengers´´ seemed to care.(KRSNA,JESUS,BUDDHA)...(and they were ´´one with the Father´´´so...)(i know, buddha wasnt, etc. etc.) still, nature needs 7 billion people to create a few thousand ´´enlightened ´´ones, who knock each other over the head about who is ´´enlightened ´´and who isnt...what a mess I like what Some Nothing says, the second alinea, i would add that you are free to add any kind of belief, as you cant escape belief wether you like it or not (even Tzu believed some guy, who made him dance tai chi 20.000 times,and colored his outlook)---and add a goal to your life (flexible, wide and disinterested) so you have some parameters within which you can play around with it...you become co-creator---it will be much more satisfactory. anyways, that is how i approach it knowledge,( a philosophy wide enough to embrace - understand- everything - based on experience--(i believe the sun will come up tomorrow-kind of ´´belief´´) love, developing the individual consciousness, Soul, your divine portion, which can actually grow, only in matter and life, (and which, one can say, is the sole purpose, conquering mind,life and body to be(come) what was not there before) work--to make the realisations real one needs to ACT in/on them, carry nirvana into daily life, overwriting engravings of the past..opening up space for the cells to live a new reality--your physical experience of the blissfull infinite)GOD is a very physical guy/gal. when you place a context, you will experience and learn and grow within that context...Your personal power-(read amount of consciousness)and that of your allies--will make it so it is our job to make god stop do nasty things one of the reasons i want to leave the forum, is like :when a doctor is performing an operation ,he doesnt really need a nurse beside him telling him that evrything he does is ´´wrong´´, or that he can not do what he wants to do...(f.i. because it wasnt done before)or because some prophet of old told him so... the magic of infinity is, that you can shift into another world where these critters do no longer exist incredible (at the same time,i am grateful for the amount of space i got here on the forum, after i got Tzu off my back)(he was blaming me for guru worship and guru marketing, blind as he was to his own guru worship and marketing, much worse than me actually) Sounds good to me. Why waste time ruminating when such a playground is available? Take your pick; lie in the grass and enjoy the sunshine, go help someone who needs help, invent something, write a book, trade some stocks, go for a hike in the woods, surf a wave, ski a mountainside, watch a movie, work a puzzle, have dinner with friends, make love...........thinking is optional. ha ha
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Post by laughter on Mar 14, 2014 12:25:20 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff?
sdp The whole "I am God and you are too" is enough to make ya' hurl, right? Thing is though, when you posted your explanation, the fact is that it works just as well without SOI as with it. Is any idea that you have of God ever going to capture what it is that you're referring to? Isn't any conceptualization along these lines limiting, and thereby incomplete? God can only ever be a thought, a theory, an abstraction, and relating any feeling or experience or sense of reality to God is only ever entangling other thoughts and emotions with the central abstraction.
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 14, 2014 20:53:39 GMT -5
Duality, the Earth Mind, a life under the control of the ego, a defalt setting for when we cause so much inner conflict that we cannot live with ourselves. A split in our consciousness, and evolution follows by splitting our brain. Can a two way radio work properly when it is split in half or in more pieces? How can we have conscious contact when we are broken? Without our connection to higherself, the universe and so on, our knowledfe has to be learned, threw trial and error, from reading, going to school and such. We know what makes this world work and work well, and when we go against our inner guidance we are cut off from that guidance. It is at that point that the ego can take over and gain control. It builds many traps with it's intilect. Traps which keep us away from the very things that we seek and long for. Building shadows and pure reflections of what it is that that we really do seek. Why duality? I always think about having all knowledge of all things, but what good is that without experience. Thousands and thousands of years to play out all of these different ways of doing things so that we can know for ourselves what does and does not work. I do not know how many people have read books or listened to teachers as opposed to having the experience for themselves, but having the experience yourself is always different from listening to what others have experienced. Having said that, I can only share what I have experienced. The times that I have been popped open and/or taken across the veil I did have a strong sense of being one with all things, but at no time did I ever loose the sense of being an individual. Hi Ishta: yutta hey, letting go into what is happening, whatever that is.. i sense individuality and i sense wholeness, and i am always clear that i am sensing..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 21:22:59 GMT -5
Non-duality cannot be defined. As soon as it is defined, it seizes to be non-duality. "Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form" pits that notion against its opposite immediately when it is uttered. Duality appears. You cannot know non-duality.
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Post by teetown on Mar 15, 2014 0:00:39 GMT -5
The appearance of duality is the result of one observing one's self...the act of observation creates the illusion of a duality of observer and observed, even though observer and observed are actually one, which, can also be observed in various ways, depending on where and how one is directing attention. We are God, or Existence, observing, creating, and frolicking in the awareness of self in ever expanding and unfolding creation of self. Observation is the act and means of creation as we perceive it. Reality is created in the instant of observation, by the act of observation, and thus, the appearance of duality is born in the observer/observed paradigm that we ourselves initiate by directing attention to all the various aspects of ourself. You are God self creating in an ever unfolding eternal now. When you are observing you are existing, when you are not observing, there is no sense of self. When you observe your hand, and ponder it, you create a sense of duality, a sense of I am me the observer, engaged in the act of observing that thing which is not 'me', but is instead my hand, a kind of duality is created, but really, the hand is you too of course, as are all things that you observe. Very nice.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 15, 2014 12:42:18 GMT -5
Non-duality cannot be defined. As soon as it is defined, it seizes to be non-duality. "Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form" pits that notion against its opposite immediately when it is uttered. Duality appears. You cannot know non-duality. I agree with this. I suppose I'm asking a question that cannot be answered. Let me ask it in a different way. The sense I get from non-duality teachers is that there is really nothing at stake in life. Life is just a game and when we die the pieces of the game merely go back into the box. It seems that nothing matters if All is One. I get married, have kids, go work, go to PTA. My brother becomes a thief, picks people's pockets, "works" a few days a week, has a nice home, plays golf. One earns their way in life, one lives off the work of other people. No judgment, no karma, both are equal. If all is One, how cannot they not be equal? If there is no I, no individuality, how cannot everything be equal? So, I go back to the OP question, if non-duality is the case, if Intelligence is the Source of all this, (if all this emerges out-of Source and is identical to Source) for what purpose? If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything. [OTOH, if we are offspring, in some sense, of Source, with Source, via creation, kicking us out of the nest so to speak, without a parachute, and we can either return to Source, or not, then, that makes life real, not a game. This is my view in a nutshell]. Non-duality doesn't do anything for me. And then most non-duality teachers say there is nothing one can do concerning realization. It seems it (conceptual non-dual "teaching", because as zazeniac points out, anything one can say is automatically dualistic) puts people to sleep instead of waking them up. sdp
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 13:02:20 GMT -5
Non-duality cannot be defined. As soon as it is defined, it seizes to be non-duality. "Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form" pits that notion against its opposite immediately when it is uttered. Duality appears. You cannot know non-duality. I agree with this. I suppose I'm asking a question that cannot be answered. Let me ask it in a different way. The sense I get from non-duality teachers is that there is really nothing at stake in life. Life is just a game and when we die the pieces of the game merely go back into the box. It seems that nothing matters if All is One. I get married, have kids, go work, go to PTA. My brother becomes a thief, picks people's pockets, "works" a few days a week, has a nice home, plays golf. One earns their way in life, one lives off the work of other people. No judgment, no karma, both are equal. If all is One, how cannot they not be equal? If there is no I, no individuality, how cannot everything be equal? So, I go back to the OP question, if non-duality is the case, if Intelligence is the Source of all this, (if all this emerges out-of Source and is identicalotonight Source) for what purpose? If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything. [OTOH, if we are offspring, in some sense, of Source, with Source, via creation, kicking us out of the nest so to speak, without a parachute, and we can either return to Source, or not, then, that makes life real, not a game. This is my view in a nutshell]. Non-duality doesn't do anything for me. And then most non-duality teachers say there is nothing one can do concerning realization. It seems it (conceptual non-dual "teaching", because as zazeniac points out, anything one can say is automatically dualistic) puts people to sleep instead of waking them up. sdp The first lesson in ACIM is "Nothing I see means anything". I struggle with that frequently, but I find it ultimately hard to refute.
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Post by laughter on Mar 15, 2014 14:00:41 GMT -5
I agree with this. I suppose I'm asking a question that cannot be answered. Let me ask it in a different way. The sense I get from non-duality teachers is that there is really nothing at stake in life. Life is just a game and when we die the pieces of the game merely go back into the box. It seems that nothing matters if All is One. I get married, have kids, go work, go to PTA. My brother becomes a thief, picks people's pockets, "works" a few days a week, has a nice home, plays golf. One earns their way in life, one lives off the work of other people. No judgment, no karma, both are equal. If all is One, how cannot they not be equal? If there is no I, no individuality, how cannot everything be equal? So, I go back to the OP question, if non-duality is the case, if Intelligence is the Source of all this, (if all this emerges out-of Source and is identicalotonight Source) for what purpose? If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything. [OTOH, if we are offspring, in some sense, of Source, with Source, via creation, kicking us out of the nest so to speak, without a parachute, and we can either return to Source, or not, then, that makes life real, not a game. This is my view in a nutshell]. Non-duality doesn't do anything for me. And then most non-duality teachers say there is nothing one can do concerning realization. It seems it (conceptual non-dual "teaching", because as zazeniac points out, anything one can say is automatically dualistic) puts people to sleep instead of waking them up. sdp The first lesson in ACIM is "Nothing I see means anything". I struggle with that frequently, but I find it ultimately hard to refute. ... in a sense, we could say that the 'pilgrim is assigning some sort of meaning to that lesson ..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 14:20:12 GMT -5
The first lesson in ACIM is "Nothing I see means anything". I struggle with that frequently, but I find it ultimately hard to refute. ... in a sense, we could say that the 'pilgrim is assigning some sort of meaning to that lesson .. I think I fall into that as well. I don't know how to interpret that in a constructive sense and I wonder at it's implications.
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Post by laughter on Mar 15, 2014 14:28:10 GMT -5
... in a sense, we could say that the 'pilgrim is assigning some sort of meaning to that lesson .. I think I fall into that as well. I don't know how to interpret that in a constructive sense and I wonder at it's implications. It's the kind of thing that you can turn on it's head and it will point the same way ... consider that in simply consciously regarding what is in front of you in this very moment, regardless of whether it's a lump of coal, a bar of gold, a grey rainswept sky or a ray of sunlight through the water in a goldfish bowl ... you can find and feel a profound and deep meaning that is beyond expression with words ... this is the same notion as "nothing that appears to you has meaning".
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2014 16:01:52 GMT -5
Non-duality cannot be defined. As soon as it is defined, it seizes to be non-duality. "Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form" pits that notion against its opposite immediately when it is uttered. Duality appears. You cannot know non-duality. I agree with this. I suppose I'm asking a question that cannot be answered. Let me ask it in a different way. The sense I get from non-duality teachers is that there is really nothing at stake in life. Life is just a game and when we die the pieces of the game merely go back into the box. It seems that nothing matters if All is One. I get married, have kids, go work, go to PTA. My brother becomes a thief, picks people's pockets, "works" a few days a week, has a nice home, plays golf. One earns their way in life, one lives off the work of other people. No judgment, no karma, both are equal. If all is One, how cannot they not be equal? If there is no I, no individuality, how cannot everything be equal? So, I go back to the OP question, if non-duality is the case, if Intelligence is the Source of all this, (if all this emerges out-of Source and is identical to Source) for what purpose? If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything. [OTOH, if we are offspring, in some sense, of Source, with Source, via creation, kicking us out of the nest so to speak, without a parachute, and we can either return to Source, or not, then, that makes life real, not a game. This is my view in a nutshell]. Non-duality doesn't do anything for me. And then most non-duality teachers say there is nothing one can do concerning realization. It seems it (conceptual non-dual "teaching", because as zazeniac points out, anything one can say is automatically dualistic) puts people to sleep instead of waking them up. sdp SDP: You're trying to use the mind to try to solve something that can't be solved by the mind. When you use the mind, you move further away from the truth, not closer. In order to understand, you'll need to turn attention away from thoughts to "what is." Your questions are blinding you to the truth of your own being. You wrote, "If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything." This is intellectual hogwash. You are the living truth asking if the living truth means anything. Does your wife or your work mean anything? Does helping a friend mean anything? Does a flower mean anything? What is the meaning of life? You already understand the answers to all of these questions, but your direct understanding is being obscured by focusing attention "out there" in a world of abstractions rather than here-and-now where there is only the presence of being. You wrote, "Non-duality doesn't do anything for me." FWIW, non-duality doesn't do anything for anybody. It's just a phrase for pointing to the unity of being. Forget non-duality and go for a walk in the woods. You're more likely to find the truth by looking at the trees than by any amount of thinking. BTW, if Source could kick Source out of Source (with or without a parachute) that would be a real trick!
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2014 16:11:15 GMT -5
I think I fall into that as well. I don't know how to interpret that in a constructive sense and I wonder at it's implications. It's the kind of thing that you can turn on it's head and it will point the same way ... consider that in simply consciously regarding what is in front of you in this very moment, regardless of whether it's a lump of coal, a bar of gold, a grey rainswept sky or a ray of sunlight through the water in a goldfish bowl ... you can find and feel a profound and deep meaning that is beyond expression with words ... this is the same notion as "nothing that appears to you has meaning". Correct. There is direct meaning, and there is intellectual meaning, and the difference between the two is vast.
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