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Post by tzujanli on Mar 15, 2014 18:12:17 GMT -5
I agree with this. I suppose I'm asking a question that cannot be answered. Let me ask it in a different way. The sense I get from non-duality teachers is that there is really nothing at stake in life. Life is just a game and when we die the pieces of the game merely go back into the box. It seems that nothing matters if All is One. I get married, have kids, go work, go to PTA. My brother becomes a thief, picks people's pockets, "works" a few days a week, has a nice home, plays golf. One earns their way in life, one lives off the work of other people. No judgment, no karma, both are equal. If all is One, how cannot they not be equal? If there is no I, no individuality, how cannot everything be equal? So, I go back to the OP question, if non-duality is the case, if Intelligence is the Source of all this, (if all this emerges out-of Source and is identicalotonight Source) for what purpose? If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything. [OTOH, if we are offspring, in some sense, of Source, with Source, via creation, kicking us out of the nest so to speak, without a parachute, and we can either return to Source, or not, then, that makes life real, not a game. This is my view in a nutshell]. Non-duality doesn't do anything for me. And then most non-duality teachers say there is nothing one can do concerning realization. It seems it (conceptual non-dual "teaching", because as zazeniac points out, anything one can say is automatically dualistic) puts people to sleep instead of waking them up. sdp The first lesson in ACIM is " Nothing I see means anything". I struggle with that frequently, but I find it ultimately hard to refute. There is zero evidence that anyone posting on this forum believes or accepts that statement as an accurate representation of actuality.. it sounds good, but nobody acts accordingly.. There's nothing to refute, it's words that have no basis.. that you are trapped into struggling with someone else'e beliefs rather than being fully present for your own direct experience of this present moment, refutes attachment to the words and the ideology of ACIM.. a 'miracle' is a perfectly natural happening that the observer doesn't yet understand..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 18:19:44 GMT -5
The first lesson in ACIM is " Nothing I see means anything". I struggle with that frequently, but I find it ultimately hard to refute. There is zero evidence that anyone posting on this forum believes or accepts that statement as an accurate representation of actuality.. it sounds good, but nobody acts accordingly.. There's nothing to refute, it's words that have no basis.. that you are trapped into struggling with someone else'e beliefs rather than being fully present for your own direct experience of this present moment, refutes attachment to the words and the ideology of ACIM.. a 'miracle' is a perfectly natural happening that the observer doesn't yet understand.. I take it you don't read ACIM.
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 15, 2014 19:22:12 GMT -5
There is zero evidence that anyone posting on this forum believes or accepts that statement as an accurate representation of actuality.. it sounds good, but nobody acts accordingly.. There's nothing to refute, it's words that have no basis.. that you are trapped into struggling with someone else'e beliefs rather than being fully present for your own direct experience of this present moment, refutes attachment to the words and the ideology of ACIM.. a 'miracle' is a perfectly natural happening that the observer doesn't yet understand.. I take it you don't read ACIM. I have read it, and i have gone to workshops. Directly in front of me, on my bookcase, is the book 'Gifts From A Course In Miracles', edited by Francis Vaughn, and Roger Walsh, Foreword by Marianne Williamson.. i gave my copy of 'A Course In Miracles' to someone. There is great wisdom in much of the Course's message, but that message is limited, confined, and exploited.. every revelation made by the Course's message is immediately available as direct insight/experience through the clarity of a still mind's awareness, and.. in that direct experience/insight the actuality is integrated as a self-evident actuality by the experiencer's own existence, rather than the second-hand experiences/instructions of others..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 19:31:53 GMT -5
I take it you don't read ACIM. I have read it, and i have gone to workshops. Directly in front of me, on my bookcase, is the book 'Gifts From A Course In Miracles', edited by Francis Vaughn, and Roger Walsh, Foreword by Marianne Williamson.. i gave my copy of 'A Course In Miracles' to someone. There is great wisdom in much of the Course's message, but that message is limited, confined, and exploited.. every revelation made by the Course's message is immediately available as direct insight/experience through the clarity of a still mind's awareness, and.. in that direct experience/insight the actuality is integrated as a self-evident actuality by the experiencer's own existence, rather than the second-hand experiences/instructions of others.. That's where I am at an impasse with the Course. It's beautiful, but I can't say that I have experienced life being in accord with it's message. In your opinion, what is the primary wisdom of ACIM?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2014 19:42:33 GMT -5
The first lesson in ACIM is " Nothing I see means anything". I struggle with that frequently, but I find it ultimately hard to refute. There is zero evidence that anyone posting on this forum believes or accepts that statement as an accurate representation of actuality.. it sounds good, but nobody acts accordingly.. There's nothing to refute, it's words that have no basis.. that you are trapped into struggling with someone else'e beliefs rather than being fully present for your own direct experience of this present moment, refutes attachment to the words and the ideology of ACIM.. a 'miracle' is a perfectly natural happening that the observer doesn't yet understand.. Totally agree.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 15, 2014 19:47:07 GMT -5
I have read it, and i have gone to workshops. Directly in front of me, on my bookcase, is the book 'Gifts From A Course In Miracles', edited by Francis Vaughn, and Roger Walsh, Foreword by Marianne Williamson.. i gave my copy of 'A Course In Miracles' to someone. There is great wisdom in much of the Course's message, but that message is limited, confined, and exploited.. every revelation made by the Course's message is immediately available as direct insight/experience through the clarity of a still mind's awareness, and.. in that direct experience/insight the actuality is integrated as a self-evident actuality by the experiencer's own existence, rather than the second-hand experiences/instructions of others.. That's where I am at an impasse with the Course. It's beautiful, but I can't say that I have experienced life being in accord with it's message. In your opinion, what is the primary wisdom of ACIM? I suggest throwing away ACIM (and all other "holy" books) and just looking at the world with a still mind until the looker is seen through.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 21:14:49 GMT -5
That's where I am at an impasse with the Course. It's beautiful, but I can't say that I have experienced life being in accord with it's message. In your opinion, what is the primary wisdom of ACIM? I suggest throwing away ACIM (and all other "holy" books) and just looking at the world with a still mind until the looker is seen through. I suggest throwing away the "until______" also ;-)
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 15, 2014 21:58:03 GMT -5
That's where I am at an impasse with the Course. It's beautiful, but I can't say that I have experienced life being in accord with it's message. In your opinion, what is the primary wisdom of ACIM? I suggest throwing away ACIM (and all other "holy" books) and just looking at the world with a still mind until the looker is seen through.You get close.. then, market your personal beliefs.. the effect of your statement is an attempt to discredit all the beliefs but your own, distorting the clarity which at first you propose.. "Just looking at the world with a still mind", trusts that process to reveal what 'is', but.. to suggest that your beliefs are what should be seen, that " the looker is seen through", shows how little you actually trust that clarity to include your beliefs in the isness it reveals..
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 15, 2014 22:50:16 GMT -5
I was just reminded of something I've known for many years. In the NT the Greek word translated as salvation (as in when a fundamentalist Christian asked you if you have been saved) means, to be made whole. sdp
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Post by enigma on Mar 15, 2014 23:40:44 GMT -5
Non-duality cannot be defined. As soon as it is defined, it seizes to be non-duality. "Form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form" pits that notion against its opposite immediately when it is uttered. Duality appears. You cannot know non-duality. I agree with this. I suppose I'm asking a question that cannot be answered. Let me ask it in a different way. The sense I get from non-duality teachers is that there is really nothing at stake in life. Life is just a game and when we die the pieces of the game merely go back into the box. It seems that nothing matters if All is One. I get married, have kids, go work, go to PTA. My brother becomes a thief, picks people's pockets, "works" a few days a week, has a nice home, plays golf. One earns their way in life, one lives off the work of other people. No judgment, no karma, both are equal. If all is One, how cannot they not be equal? If there is no I, no individuality, how cannot everything be equal? So, I go back to the OP question, if non-duality is the case, if Intelligence is the Source of all this, (if all this emerges out-of Source and is identical to Source) for what purpose? If non-duality is the case, it seems that nothing means anything. [OTOH, if we are offspring, in some sense, of Source, with Source, via creation, kicking us out of the nest so to speak, without a parachute, and we can either return to Source, or not, then, that makes life real, not a game. This is my view in a nutshell]. Non-duality doesn't do anything for me. And then most non-duality teachers say there is nothing one can do concerning realization. It seems it (conceptual non-dual "teaching", because as zazeniac points out, anything one can say is automatically dualistic) puts people to sleep instead of waking them up. sdp Then I suggest you ignore nonduality, and discussions about nonduality, and pursue your interests.
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Post by enigma on Mar 15, 2014 23:59:12 GMT -5
I think I fall into that as well. I don't know how to interpret that in a constructive sense and I wonder at it's implications. It's the kind of thing that you can turn on it's head and it will point the same way ... consider that in simply consciously regarding what is in front of you in this very moment, regardless of whether it's a lump of coal, a bar of gold, a grey rainswept sky or a ray of sunlight through the water in a goldfish bowl ... you can find and feel a profound and deep meaning that is beyond expression with words ... this is the same notion as "nothing that appears to you has meaning". The person is looking for personal meaning; something to give his sense of personhood purpose. A goal, a potential accomplishment, the sense of being part of something greater, a windmill to tilt, a legacy to leave, justification for his trials and tribulations. All of this searching and striving darkens and obscures the simple beauty and wonder and terrible power of this world that drives God mad.
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Post by silver on Mar 16, 2014 1:09:42 GMT -5
It's the kind of thing that you can turn on it's head and it will point the same way ... consider that in simply consciously regarding what is in front of you in this very moment, regardless of whether it's a lump of coal, a bar of gold, a grey rainswept sky or a ray of sunlight through the water in a goldfish bowl ... you can find and feel a profound and deep meaning that is beyond expression with words ... this is the same notion as "nothing that appears to you has meaning". The person is looking for personal meaning; something to give his sense of personhood purpose. A goal, a potential accomplishment, the sense of being part of something greater, a windmill to tilt, a legacy to leave, justification for his trials and tribulations. All of this searching and striving darkens and obscures the simple beauty and wonder and terrible power of this world that drives God mad.What the di.ckens does that mean?
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Post by enigma on Mar 16, 2014 1:35:46 GMT -5
The person is looking for personal meaning; something to give his sense of personhood purpose. A goal, a potential accomplishment, the sense of being part of something greater, a windmill to tilt, a legacy to leave, justification for his trials and tribulations. All of this searching and striving darkens and obscures the simple beauty and wonder and terrible power of this world that drives God mad.What the di.ckens does that mean? I just read 5 pages of madness in morality thread in the um section. You were there too.
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Post by silver on Mar 16, 2014 1:37:33 GMT -5
What the di.ckens does that mean? I just read 5 pages of madness in morality thread in the um section. You were there too. But who is this god you speak of? Now? Sounds like you're god and it drove you mad, heh....?
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Post by laughter on Mar 16, 2014 1:56:08 GMT -5
It's the kind of thing that you can turn on it's head and it will point the same way ... consider that in simply consciously regarding what is in front of you in this very moment, regardless of whether it's a lump of coal, a bar of gold, a grey rainswept sky or a ray of sunlight through the water in a goldfish bowl ... you can find and feel a profound and deep meaning that is beyond expression with words ... this is the same notion as "nothing that appears to you has meaning". The person is looking for personal meaning; something to give his sense of personhood purpose. A goal, a potential accomplishment, the sense of being part of something greater, a windmill to tilt, a legacy to leave, justification for his trials and tribulations. All of this searching and striving darkens and obscures the simple beauty and wonder and terrible power of this world that drives God mad. ... and the real meaning is so simple, so obvious, and so much easier to grasp ... it's the cosmic joke writ large!!
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