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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2014 18:35:30 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff?
sdp
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 13, 2014 19:35:44 GMT -5
There is no explanation. There are just several stories that attempt to explain the flip from non-duality to duality, but none of them show a logical necessity.
Personally I think the entire model is wrong, that's why there is no sufficient explanation.
I don't understand the notion of duality. Why two? Why not three, four, ten, twenty? I look around and I don't find a "two" anywhere.
And why does non-duality mean one? Why not three, four, ten, twenty? I look around and I don't find a "one" anywhere.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2014 19:51:57 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp Have you sufficiently proven the postulates of non-duality yet, and are you accepting of them? Is non-duality unquestionably self-evident to you?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2014 21:10:53 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp Have you sufficiently proven the postulates of non-duality yet, and are you accepting of them? Is non-duality unquestionably self-evident to you? I'm an anti-nondualist (just found that word on another thread....usually say I'm not a non-dualist). I just removed a short explanation from my signature, guess I'll have to put it back. I can't prove it's so, but it's my predilection to believe God exists as Creator. So, there is God and then there's everything else. I believe there's a line of separation between God, transcendent (known in the Kabbalah as Ein Sof), and everything else, God exists outside of creation. God exists as Source of life, meaning, exists within the universe (immanent) but is not bound within the universe. OTOH, I do believe in the non-duality of everything else (this is why I would never deny anyone's experience of non-duality). We, couldn't exist, without everything else. In physics it's known as the Anthropic Principle, the universe is finely tuned for the existence of life. No physicist will deny this, but most physicists do not believe it is a result of planning by God. All that's why I'd like for someone to clue me in.......... sdp
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Post by enigma on Mar 13, 2014 21:15:16 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp Are you under the impression that nonduality is some kind of experience, which makes duality another kind of experience? (an unnecessary one)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 13, 2014 21:25:03 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp Are you under the impression that nonduality is some kind of experience, which makes duality another kind of experience? (an unnecessary one) Ah.....no. I know an individual can't experience non-duality, that would negate the Whole shebang. sdp
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Post by enigma on Mar 13, 2014 21:51:24 GMT -5
Have you sufficiently proven the postulates of non-duality yet, and are you accepting of them? Is non-duality unquestionably self-evident to you? I'm an anti-nondualist (just found that word on another thread....usually say I'm not a non-dualist). I just removed a short explanation from my signature, guess I'll have to put it back. I can't prove it's so, but it's my predilection to believe God exists as Creator. So, there is God and then there's everything else. I believe there's a line of separation between God, transcendent (known in the Kabbalah as Ein Sof), and everything else, God exists outside of creation. God exists as Source of life, meaning, exists within the universe (immanent) but is not bound within the universe. OTOH, I do believe in the non-duality of everything else (this is why I would never deny anyone's experience of non-duality). We, couldn't exist, without everything else. In physics it's known as the Anthropic Principle, the universe is finely tuned for the existence of life. No physicist will deny this, but most physicists do not believe it is a result of planning by God. All that's why I'd like for someone to clue me in.......... sdp If God is present in everything, and outside everything, then God is both inside and outside, both source and substance, form and formlessness. IOW, there is just God. That's all nondual means.
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Post by enigma on Mar 13, 2014 21:54:06 GMT -5
Are you under the impression that nonduality is some kind of experience, which makes duality another kind of experience? (an unnecessary one) Ah.....no. I know an individual can't experience non-duality, that would negate the Whole shebang. sdp Okay, so you see the advantage of experience happening? That requires appearances.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2014 23:10:06 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp The appearance of duality is the result of one observing one's self...the act of observation creates the illusion of a duality of observer and observed, even though observer and observed are actually one, which, can also be observed in various ways, depending on where and how one is directing attention. We are God, or Existence, observing, creating, and frolicking in the awareness of self in ever expanding and unfolding creation of self. Observation is the act and means of creation as we perceive it. Reality is created in the instant of observation, by the act of observation, and thus, the appearance of duality is born in the observer/observed paradigm that we ourselves initiate by directing attention to all the various aspects of ourself. You are God self creating in an ever unfolding eternal now. When you are observing you are existing, when you are not observing, there is no sense of self. When you observe your hand, and ponder it, you create a sense of duality, a sense of I am me the observer, engaged in the act of observing that thing which is not 'me', but is instead my hand, a kind of duality is created, but really, the hand is you too of course, as are all things that you observe.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 14, 2014 0:01:24 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp Might I suggest that with your present world view and belief system still intact, you appear to still be trying to understand something, that there is some purpose to be achieved. You still think there is something missing from your collection of ideas because something seems amiss ?AHEM?, therefore you're asking such questions. In your mind, this gives your sense of separation (i.e., from god ) some feeling of objective validity, but you simply cannot point out where that separation exists outside of the very ideas you use to define your purpose (i.e., separate existence). Using purpose to achieve purposelessness is where you could be heading, but of course, that is actually the realization of an absence of purpose. Your mind will come up with plenty of reasons why it simply could not be so, and you are likely to get caught up in that very story, thus maintaining the illusion of your prison of belief Iin separation. But, then again, perhaps your sincere enough in ratcheting up your self-consciousness to just beyond lightspeed, ending up out HERE, looking in at the wondrous drama of life being co-created with the quality of consciousness with which YOU imbue it. Let's see what happens.
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 14, 2014 5:25:02 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp The appearance of duality is the result of one observing one's self...the act of observation creates the illusion of a duality of observer and observed, even though observer and observed are actually one, which, can also be observed in various ways, depending on where and how one is directing attention. We are God, or Existence, observing, creating, and frolicking in the awareness of self in ever expanding and unfolding creation of self. Observation is the act and means of creation as we perceive it. Reality is created in the instant of observation, by the act of observation, and thus, the appearance of duality is born in the observer/observed paradigm that we ourselves initiate by directing attention to all the various aspects of ourself. You are God self creating in an ever unfolding eternal now. When you are observing you are existing, when you are not observing, there is no sense of self. When you observe your hand, and ponder it, you create a sense of duality, a sense of I am me the observer, engaged in the act of observing that thing which is not 'me', but is instead my hand, a kind of duality is created, but really, the hand is you too of course, as are all things that you observe. Can you realize that your post is a collection of ideas you use to explain how you think your experience is happening? 'God' is an idea, instilled by socio-religious conditioning.. can you realize that the words you use expand the experience itself beyond the actual happening to your opinion of that happening, and.. everyone has their own opinion? can you return to the experience itself, without 'God' or 'reality', or duality vs. non-duality?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 6:46:05 GMT -5
The appearance of duality is the result of one observing one's self...the act of observation creates the illusion of a duality of observer and observed, even though observer and observed are actually one, which, can also be observed in various ways, depending on where and how one is directing attention. We are God, or Existence, observing, creating, and frolicking in the awareness of self in ever expanding and unfolding creation of self. Observation is the act and means of creation as we perceive it. Reality is created in the instant of observation, by the act of observation, and thus, the appearance of duality is born in the observer/observed paradigm that we ourselves initiate by directing attention to all the various aspects of ourself. You are God self creating in an ever unfolding eternal now. When you are observing you are existing, when you are not observing, there is no sense of self. When you observe your hand, and ponder it, you create a sense of duality, a sense of I am me the observer, engaged in the act of observing that thing which is not 'me', but is instead my hand, a kind of duality is created, but really, the hand is you too of course, as are all things that you observe. Can you realize that your post is a collection of ideas you use to explain how you think your experience is happening? 'God' is an idea, instilled by socio-religious conditioning.. can you realize that the words you use expand the experience itself beyond the actual happening to your opinion of that happening, and.. everyone has their own opinion? can you return to the experience itself, without 'God' or 'reality', or duality vs. non-duality? Quite frequently.....but then invariably, I also often have conversations with people, using words.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 14, 2014 8:23:01 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp As others have already noted, neither duality nor non-duality appear in any sense. Those are ideas ABOUT "what is." The computer you are typing on is not separate from you until you IMAGINE that it is separate from you, and the separation is an idea, only. If you look without imagining, there is neither form nor void. IOW, your thinking about "purpose," "duality, "non-duality," "God as a separate thing," "you," "your computer," your "fingers on the keys of the computer," and all the rest is imagination. If you will look at "what is" with Tzu's "still mind," nothing will be imagined, and you will remain psychologically one-with "what is" in an undivided state. If you insist upon imagining, then the world you imagine will continue to appear as you imagine it. If you cease imagining, then everything in front of your eyes will continue to be seen as before but without names, ideas of separation, or ideas ABOUT what is seen.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 14, 2014 8:24:08 GMT -5
I'm an anti-nondualist (just found that word on another thread....usually say I'm not a non-dualist). I just removed a short explanation from my signature, guess I'll have to put it back. I can't prove it's so, but it's my predilection to believe God exists as Creator. So, there is God and then there's everything else. I believe there's a line of separation between God, transcendent (known in the Kabbalah as Ein Sof), and everything else, God exists outside of creation. God exists as Source of life, meaning, exists within the universe (immanent) but is not bound within the universe. OTOH, I do believe in the non-duality of everything else (this is why I would never deny anyone's experience of non-duality). We, couldn't exist, without everything else. In physics it's known as the Anthropic Principle, the universe is finely tuned for the existence of life. No physicist will deny this, but most physicists do not believe it is a result of planning by God. All that's why I'd like for someone to clue me in.......... sdp If God is present in everything, and outside everything, then God is both inside and outside, both source and substance, form and formlessness. IOW, there is just God. That's all nondual means. Correct.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 14, 2014 8:25:10 GMT -5
If non-duality is the case, then what is the purpose of duality? Even if duality is merely apparent (and I don't buy that, this computer I'm typing on is pretty apparent), why the appearance of duality? .........Now, I know the usual explanation, the layla of God, God is hiding from himself and all this is some sort of cosmic/comic game, so if that's all you've got, don't bother (unless you can elaborate). If in the beginning there is God, the Absolute, Supreme Ordering Intelligence, and if all is One, how do we end up with a lot stuff that doesn't seem to be God-stuff? sdp The appearance of duality is the result of one observing one's self...the act of observation creates the illusion of a duality of observer and observed, even though observer and observed are actually one, which, can also be observed in various ways, depending on where and how one is directing attention. We are God, or Existence, observing, creating, and frolicking in the awareness of self in ever expanding and unfolding creation of self. Observation is the act and means of creation as we perceive it. Reality is created in the instant of observation, by the act of observation, and thus, the appearance of duality is born in the observer/observed paradigm that we ourselves initiate by directing attention to all the various aspects of ourself. You are God self creating in an ever unfolding eternal now. When you are observing you are existing, when you are not observing, there is no sense of self. When you observe your hand, and ponder it, you create a sense of duality, a sense of I am me the observer, engaged in the act of observing that thing which is not 'me', but is instead my hand, a kind of duality is created, but really, the hand is you too of course, as are all things that you observe. Correct.
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