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Post by earnest on Nov 27, 2014 19:50:46 GMT -5
This post by Laughter on the quote thread is particularly good, and sort of sums up a lot of the issues we discuss on the forum: "As the seeker dissolves, then peace is born, and there is stillness. This is not a quality of stillness that has any dependence on an emotional state. At the moment when the seeker starts to dissolve and there is just peace, then the pendulum might swing into a high spiritual state or into a very ordinary state, or even into an unpleasant state, and the peace itself remains completely independent of those states. This is the dawning of the realization that only from the place where the seeker is dissolving can freedom happen because there is no longer any movement toward or away from experience. The nature of experience is that it changes or undulates like the waves on the ocean. It's supposed to be doing that. Identity starts to shift from "me", the seeker, chasing some particular experience, to just this. Just this. The center is always right here. The center always was right here. It's just the seeker that insisted the center could be in the spiritual high experience. But as the seeker dissolves, then right here is where every instant is the center. It's motionless right here. And you can be having a very ordinary, a very unhappy, or a very extraordinary emotional and psychological experience, and still the center is right here. And only from here does it begin to dawn that everything is an expression of the center. Everything. There is no experience that is more the truth than any other experience, because in the center of it all, there is no seeker. Right here, there is nothing. All is One. You will discover there is no little "me" in the center occupying the space. Without this me in the center, there is nobody to judge whether a given experience is the right experience or whether it is spiritual. Do you get it? This is it! When my teacher banged his stick on the ground, he showed that everything was arising out of the center where nothing is. From para's 14 - 16, Chapter 13 "Spiritual Addiction" Thanks ZD.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2014 2:10:29 GMT -5
You mean what difference does that insight make? Absolutely speaking, no difference, because realization is acausal. Relatively speaking, there can be all kinds of benefits. I said it not so long ago to Quinn that realization being acausal is actually a reason to rejoice. Some get that, some don't. What I had in mind was SDP's reply to my question "Is your journey quantifiable?" and he said "Yes" after 35 years of being a seeker... and still seeking. How many awakened ones (Real McCoy's) do you know or have you heard of that stated that it turned out exactly as expected? When you get right down to it, life is acausal... Generally speaking? I don't think so. Keep in mind that when we use the word acausal, we talk about what is prior to experiences.
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Post by enigma on Nov 28, 2014 2:59:52 GMT -5
But apparently there is a cup of tea. I'm just saying "ordinary life" is the reappearance of mountains and rivers. E. Sorry, I misunderstood your "2nd mountain." In Zen what you're calling "2nd mountain" is called "3rd mountain." 1 is mountains are mountains, 2 is mountains are not mountains, and 3 is mountains are mountains. Oh, I thought 3rd mountain was something Figandrew made up. Hehe
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Post by Reefs on Dec 1, 2014 11:45:18 GMT -5
E. Sorry, I misunderstood your "2nd mountain." In Zen what you're calling "2nd mountain" is called "3rd mountain." 1 is mountains are mountains, 2 is mountains are not mountains, and 3 is mountains are mountains. Oh, I thought 3rd mountain was something Figandrew made up. Hehe There are never 3 mountains, not even in Zen.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 1, 2014 12:43:10 GMT -5
Oh, I thought 3rd mountain was something Figandrew made up. Hehe There are never 3 mountains, not even in Zen. Perhaps we could call them "general stages in understanding."
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 1, 2014 19:47:57 GMT -5
Oh, I thought 3rd mountain was something Figandrew made up. Hehe There are never 3 mountains, not even in Zen. Picky....picky.....picky....... Fundamentally no Bodhi-tree exists, Nor stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight. Hui Neng ..........but that would be mountain #2.......
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Post by laughter on Dec 2, 2014 5:55:21 GMT -5
There are never 3 mountains, not even in Zen. Perhaps we could call them "general stages in understanding." How would you relate those stages to the idea of the absence of volition, if at all?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 2, 2014 8:22:19 GMT -5
There are never 3 mountains, not even in Zen. Picky....picky.....picky....... Fundamentally no Bodhi-tree exists, Nor stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight. Hui Neng ..........but that would be mountain #2....... Why not mountain #3? Hui Neng was 6th patriarch after all.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 2, 2014 8:22:42 GMT -5
There are never 3 mountains, not even in Zen. Perhaps we could call them "general stages in understanding." Yeah, that would work.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 2, 2014 9:06:12 GMT -5
Picky....picky.....picky....... Fundamentally no Bodhi-tree exists, Nor stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight. Hui Neng ..........but that would be mountain #2....... Why not mountain #3? Hui Neng was 6th patriarch after all. At mountain #3 there are Bodhi-trees, mirror stands, and mirrors.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 2, 2014 9:18:09 GMT -5
Why not mountain #3? Hui Neng was 6th patriarch after all. At mountain #3 there are Bodhi-trees, mirror stands, and mirrors. So, in order to see that there are fundamentally no bodhy-trees, you have to go from mountain #3 back to mountain #2 again? Just curious how you figger that mountain stuff actually works.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 2, 2014 9:47:28 GMT -5
At mountain #3 there are Bodhi-trees, mirror stands, and mirrors. So, in order to see that there are fundamentally no bodhy-trees, you have to go from mountain #3 back to mountain #2 again? Just curious how you figger that mountain stuff actually works. I actually came back to clarify the last post, but you responded already (good question), so I'll do it here. Mountain #3 is not the same mountain as mountain #1, as in, mountains are once again mountains. You do in a sense go back to mountain #2. When you are at mountain #3, you carry what you learned at #2 with you to #3. At mountain #1 you have no clue about mountain #2. At mountain #3 you see all of life through mountain #2. In a very real sense at mountain #3, you are actually still at mountain #2. How does this mountain stuff work? ...........ask zd
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 10:07:09 GMT -5
So, in order to see that there are fundamentally no bodhy-trees, you have to go from mountain #3 back to mountain #2 again? Just curious how you figger that mountain stuff actually works. I actually came back to clarify the last post, but you responded already (good question), so I'll do it here. Mountain #3 is not the same mountain as mountain #1, as in, mountains are once again mountains. You do in a sense go back to mountain #2. When you are at mountain #3, you carry what you learned at #2 with you to #3. At mountain #1 you have no clue about mountain #2. At mountain #3 you see all of life through mountain #2. In a very real sense at mountain #3, you are actually still at mountain #2. How does this mountain stuff work? ...........ask zd Donovan's rendition seemed good to me: first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is. There is only mountain#1. It's called 'mountain.' Then, heywow, that really ain't what I think it is. Then, *hiking* or *picnicing* or *skijump* or whatever.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2014 10:59:42 GMT -5
Why not mountain #3? Hui Neng was 6th patriarch after all. At mountain #3 there are Bodhi-trees, mirror stands, and mirrors. The point was that stage 3 is a more advanced understanding, so why wasn't he at stage 3?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2014 11:02:31 GMT -5
I actually came back to clarify the last post, but you responded already (good question), so I'll do it here. Mountain #3 is not the same mountain as mountain #1, as in, mountains are once again mountains. You do in a sense go back to mountain #2. When you are at mountain #3, you carry what you learned at #2 with you to #3. At mountain #1 you have no clue about mountain #2. At mountain #3 you see all of life through mountain #2. In a very real sense at mountain #3, you are actually still at mountain #2. How does this mountain stuff work? ...........ask zd Donovan's rendition seemed good to me: first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is. There is only mountain#1. It's called 'mountain.' Then, heywow, that really ain't what I think it is. Then, *hiking* or *picnicing* or *skijump* or whatever. Or mountain climbing?
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