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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 7:47:36 GMT -5
There were some conversations about practices and how they are ultimately flawed in that they're often aimed at improving the 'self'. I've been sitting with that awhile - something seemed off to me, even though I see some wisdom in it. Then I re-read something and it's directly related. I'm passing it on:
from "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck
"We are always trying to move our lives from unhappiness to happiness. Or we might say that we wish to move from a life of struggle to a life of joy. But these are not the same: moving from unhappiness to happiness is not the same as moving from struggle to joy. Some therapies seek to move us from an unhappy self to a happy self. But Zen practice (and perhaps a few other disciplines or therapies) can help us to move from an unhappy self to no-self, which is joy...
For the vast majority of us, however, practice has to proceed in an orderly fashion, in a relentless dissolution of self. And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self...
...we must have some degree of relative happiness and stability to engage in serious practice. Then we can attempt the next stage: an intelligent, persistent filtering of the various characteristics of mind and body through zazen. We begin to see our patterns: we begin to see our desires, our needs, our ego drives, and we begin to realize that these patterns, these desires, these addictions are what we call the self. As our practice continues and we begin to understand the emptiness and impermanence of these patterns, we find we can abandon them. We don't have to try to abandon them, they just slowly wither away...
We learn in our guts, not just in our brains, that a life of joy is not in seeking happiness, but in experiencing and simply being the circumstances of our life as they are; not in fulfilling the needs of life; not in avoiding pain, but in being pain when it is necessary to do so. To large an order? Too hard? On the contrary, it is the easy way."
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Post by Reefs on Dec 31, 2013 8:28:17 GMT -5
There were some conversations about practices and how they are ultimately flawed in that they're often aimed at improving the 'self'. I've been sitting with that awhile - something seemed off to me, even though I see some wisdom in it. Then I re-read something and it's directly related. I'm passing it on: from "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck "We are always trying to move our lives from unhappiness to happiness. Or we might say that we wish to move from a life of struggle to a life of joy. But these are not the same: moving from unhappiness to happiness is not the same as moving from struggle to joy. Some therapies seek to move us from an unhappy self to a happy self. But Zen practice (and perhaps a few other disciplines or therapies) can help us to move from an unhappy self to no-self, which is joy... For the vast majority of us, however, practice has to proceed in an orderly fashion, in a relentless dissolution of self. And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self... ... we must have some degree of relative happiness and stability to engage in serious practice. Then we can attempt the next stage: an intelligent, persistent filtering of the various characteristics of mind and body through zazen. We begin to see our patterns: we begin to see our desires, our needs, our ego drives, and we begin to realize that these patterns, these desires, these addictions are what we call the self. As our practice continues and we begin to understand the emptiness and impermanence of these patterns, we find we can abandon them. We don't have to try to abandon them, they just slowly wither away... We learn in our guts, not just in our brains, that a life of joy is not in seeking happiness, but in experiencing and simply being the circumstances of our life as they are; not in fulfilling the needs of life; not in avoiding pain, but in being pain when it is necessary to do so. To large an order? Too hard? On the contrary, it is the easy way." Sorry Charlotte/Quinn, but Realization and TPTPAU are unconditional. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 31, 2013 8:28:19 GMT -5
There were some conversations about practices and how they are ultimately flawed in that they're often aimed at improving the 'self'. I've been sitting with that awhile - something seemed off to me, even though I see some wisdom in it. Then I re-read something and it's directly related. I'm passing it on: from "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck "We are always trying to move our lives from unhappiness to happiness. Or we might say that we wish to move from a life of struggle to a life of joy. But these are not the same: moving from unhappiness to happiness is not the same as moving from struggle to joy. Some therapies seek to move us from an unhappy self to a happy self. But Zen practice (and perhaps a few other disciplines or therapies) can help us to move from an unhappy self to no-self, which is joy... For the vast majority of us, however, practice has to proceed in an orderly fashion, in a relentless dissolution of self. And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self... ...we must have some degree of relative happiness and stability to engage in serious practice. Then we can attempt the next stage: an intelligent, persistent filtering of the various characteristics of mind and body through zazen. We begin to see our patterns: we begin to see our desires, our needs, our ego drives, and we begin to realize that these patterns, these desires, these addictions are what we call the self. As our practice continues and we begin to understand the emptiness and impermanence of these patterns, we find we can abandon them. We don't have to try to abandon them, they just slowly wither away... We learn in our guts, not just in our brains, that a life of joy is not in seeking happiness, but in experiencing and simply being the circumstances of our life as they are; not in fulfilling the needs of life; not in avoiding pain, but in being pain when it is necessary to do so. To large an order? Too hard? On the contrary, it is the easy way." Nice post Quinn. Niz: "We know the outer world of sensations and actions, but of our inner world of thoughts and feelings we know very little. The primary purpose of meditation is to become conscious of, and familiar with, our inner life. The ultimate purpose is to reach the source of life and consciousness." "We are slaves to what we do not know; of what we know we are masters. Whatever vice or weakness in ourselves, we discover and understand its causes and its workings, we overcome it by the very knowing; the unconscious dissolves when brought into the conscious. The dissolution of the unconscious releases energy; the mind feels adequate and becomes quiet." |
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Post by Beingist on Dec 31, 2013 11:40:39 GMT -5
[...] from "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck [...] We learn in our guts, not just in our brains, that a life of joy is not in seeking happiness, but in experiencing and simply being the circumstances of our life as they are; not in fulfilling the needs of life; not in avoiding pain, but in being pain when it is necessary to do so. To large an order? Too hard? On the contrary, it is the easy way." Yes. |
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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 12:06:51 GMT -5
Sorry Charlotte/Quinn, but Realization and TPTPAU are unconditional. Who realizes, Reefs? What is it that gets realized? |
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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 12:13:04 GMT -5
Nice post Quinn. Niz: "We know the outer world of sensations and actions, but of our inner world of thoughts and feelings we know very little. The primary purpose of meditation is to become conscious of, and familiar with, our inner life. The ultimate purpose is to reach the source of life and consciousness." "We are slaves to what we do not know; of what we know we are masters. Whatever vice or weakness in ourselves, we discover and understand its causes and its workings, we overcome it by the very knowing; the unconscious dissolves when brought into the conscious. The dissolution of the unconscious releases energy; the mind feels adequate and becomes quiet." And when the mind becomes quiet, something precious is discovered.  |
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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 12:13:35 GMT -5
[...] from "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck [...] We learn in our guts, not just in our brains, that a life of joy is not in seeking happiness, but in experiencing and simply being the circumstances of our life as they are; not in fulfilling the needs of life; not in avoiding pain, but in being pain when it is necessary to do so. To large an order? Too hard? On the contrary, it is the easy way." Yes. Do you have a practice, B? |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 31, 2013 12:19:27 GMT -5
Sorry Charlotte/Quinn, but Realization and TPTPAU are unconditional. Who realizes, Reefs? What is it that gets realized? Now don't get fresh with me!  |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 31, 2013 12:22:36 GMT -5
Do you have a practice, B? Just BE.  |
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Post by Beingist on Dec 31, 2013 12:27:17 GMT -5
Do you have a practice, B? I do, if simply being is considered a practice. Definitions are rather fuzzy around here, though, and I, myself, don't consider it a practice. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 31, 2013 12:38:44 GMT -5
There were some conversations about practices and how they are ultimately flawed in that they're often aimed at improving the 'self'. I've been sitting with that awhile - something seemed off to me, even though I see some wisdom in it. Then I re-read something and it's directly related. I'm passing it on: from "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck "We are always trying to move our lives from unhappiness to happiness. Or we might say that we wish to move from a life of struggle to a life of joy. But these are not the same: moving from unhappiness to happiness is not the same as moving from struggle to joy. Some therapies seek to move us from an unhappy self to a happy self. But Zen practice (and perhaps a few other disciplines or therapies) can help us to move from an unhappy self to no-self, which is joy... For the vast majority of us, however, practice has to proceed in an orderly fashion, in a relentless dissolution of self. And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self... ...we must have some degree of relative happiness and stability to engage in serious practice. Then we can attempt the next stage: an intelligent, persistent filtering of the various characteristics of mind and body through zazen. We begin to see our patterns: we begin to see our desires, our needs, our ego drives, and we begin to realize that these patterns, these desires, these addictions are what we call the self. As our practice continues and we begin to understand the emptiness and impermanence of these patterns, we find we can abandon them. We don't have to try to abandon them, they just slowly wither away... We learn in our guts, not just in our brains, that a life of joy is not in seeking happiness, but in experiencing and simply being the circumstances of our life as they are; not in fulfilling the needs of life; not in avoiding pain, but in being pain when it is necessary to do so. To large an order? Too hard? On the contrary, it is the easy way." You do realize that in order to offer any disagreement one has to literally step up as a killjoy?  For me, sitting meditation is something that appears to have happened after the fact, but that's just one more B.S. story. While I support, applaud, understand and value the process that Charlotte describes, the the state of being isn't something that need be cultivated. This places what one is beyond the reach of the unhappy. This sets up an elite. This makes simply being a sort of accomplishment. |
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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 12:40:14 GMT -5
Who realizes, Reefs? What is it that gets realized? Now don't get fresh with me! Heehee. Until this magical unconditional Realization thingy, there must be something that gets realized. Mind? The sense of self? Certainly not life, certainly not awareness. And don't dismiss this with the using-logic-dismissal.  |
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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 12:47:35 GMT -5
You do realize that in order to offer any disagreement one has to literally step up as a killjoy? Killjoy away. Of course it does. Only if you attach a sense of self to it. No one is locked into unhappiness, so it's never out of reach to gain some peace and equanimity (or happiness). All she's saying is that in order to see what's going on in mind, and realize the nature of self, one can't be mired in unhappiness. Akin to learning how to walk before you take on a marathon. |
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Post by quinn on Dec 31, 2013 12:49:59 GMT -5
Do you have a practice, B? I do, if simply being is considered a practice. Definitions are rather fuzzy around here, though, and I, myself, don't consider it a practice. Do you consider the opposite of beingness to be 'lost in mind'? If that's an ok definition...then how does one not be lost in mind? No, actually - how do you keep from becoming lost in mind? |
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Post by laughter on Dec 31, 2013 13:02:52 GMT -5
You do realize that in order to offer any disagreement one has to literally step up as a killjoy? Killjoy away. ... well you see I'd much rather not, but Charlotte's wrapped her ideas in the word. Well here we'll just have to agree to disagree because what I'm referring to as being is the ultimate commonality, what might be said to be at our root, at our core. It's always there, and even for the most unhappy among us, always right under our very noses. Only if you attach a sense of self to it. Uh ... yeah, I'm not the one who suggested that ... Charlotte's words set that context, not mine. No one is locked into unhappiness, so it's never out of reach to gain some peace and equanimity (or happiness). All she's saying is that in order to see what's going on in mind, and realize the nature of self, one can't be mired in unhappiness. Akin to learning how to walk before you take on a marathon. I support, applaud, understand and value the process that Charlotte describes ... but I disagree with the assertion that one must first become happy in order to, as she has said "move from an unhappy self to no-self". All roads lead to Rome but there's many more than one. What person is ever truly happy? How can happiness be anything permanent? |
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