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Post by enigma on Dec 31, 2013 14:28:15 GMT -5
Sometimes they are, but that's not the only reason. Any practice that encourages a split mind, like trying to control thoughts, is inherently flawed and self deceptive. They also may reinforce, not only the notion of a separate self, but also the volition of that separate self. Practices also imply a future goal, denying the actuality that what is being sought is that which is seeking. This immediacy is tangential to that goal oriented process. Very clear. Thank you. Is that a redundant question or are you really asking? It was rhetorical, if that's what you mean. I was inviting you to address the validity of the explanation given. Suffering is the catalyst for both seeking, and for surrender. Devotion, willingness and sincerity come out of that suffering. Some would say there must be suffering. I hesitate to go that far because actually nothing is needed, but I understand the sentiment. That's what I was implying.
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Post by enigma on Dec 31, 2013 14:37:59 GMT -5
What point are you trying to make? The point is this: This is a write-up about meditation quieting mind so that one is able to see what this self business is all about. The context is individual, personal, and speaking to someone where they are. The response, "Realization is unconditional" is speaking outside of that context. It would be like me saying, "Would you like half my apple?" and you saying "It's all one." Heh heh. Well, that depends upon where one is. The seeker can realize that self realization doesn't require some kind of practice, and this realization can save decades of practicing. What may happen then is that things get disturbingly quiet because mind doesn't have anywhere to go after losing it's games. The is highly auspicious and not to be dismissed on the basis that the seeker isn't 'there' yet. There's no 'there' to get to, so the games may never lead to this clarity. All of this is actually in the same context of the seeker who is playing games with himself.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 31, 2013 14:40:50 GMT -5
Oh, and btw, I don't consider anything the opposite of beingness. It's sorta ... well, all there is. Kinda like that consciousness stuff. Oh. Terminology is a bear - heh heh. That's what I'd refer to as awareness. Beingness to me is more like a natural human state, without all the (as ZD put it) blah blah blah. Okay, awareness then. So, if I'm a Beingist, that would make you a ... Awarist. Beingness/awareness/consciousness/'what is'/'what I am' ... all the same thing, to me. And there is no 'opposite'. All there is.
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Post by enigma on Dec 31, 2013 15:08:19 GMT -5
It also implies that happiness leads to surrender and struggle does not. If that's what you read, you missed the point. I don't think that's implied at all. I hear her saying that we must become happy first because there is absolutely no way to get there from struggle. Maybe she uses the phrase "absolutely no way" because she doesn't really believe it herself and is hoping to convince you. "And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self..."
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Post by enigma on Dec 31, 2013 15:10:31 GMT -5
Mind asks how mind can avoid being lost in mind. I suggest mind will have to see through that mind game, and then see through all mind games. I was asking B about his personal and unique view of beingness. If there are any games going on, it would be for B to see (or not) before you go about dismissing the inquiry. I didn't dismiss the inquiry. I specifically encouraged it.
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Post by silence on Dec 31, 2013 17:53:50 GMT -5
However, I do see an advantage in mental stability and clarity. This essentially means becoming conscious. To the extent that any practice can help bring that about, I'm all for it. It's also my observation that most are working on mental stability.
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Post by silence on Dec 31, 2013 17:58:31 GMT -5
What point are you trying to make? The point is this: This is a write-up about meditation quieting mind so that one is able to see what this self business is all about. The context is individual, personal, and speaking to someone where they are. The response, "Realization is unconditional" is speaking outside of that context. It would be like me saying, "Would you like half my apple?" and you saying "It's all one." Heh heh. When mind is quiet there really isn't any 'self business' to see as we're literally talking about a compulsive movement of thought. The best time to see, is precisely when that compulsion is in full swing and there's an interest to be clear about what that is.
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Post by silence on Dec 31, 2013 18:00:18 GMT -5
I was asking B about his personal and unique view of beingness. If there are any games going on, it would be for B to see (or not) before you go about dismissing the inquiry. Oh, and btw, I don't consider anything the opposite of beingness. It's sorta ... well, all there is. Kinda like that consciousness stuff. One can live inside vague spiritual sounding terms for quite a long time.
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Post by enigma on Dec 31, 2013 19:05:00 GMT -5
However, I do see an advantage in mental stability and clarity. This essentially means becoming conscious. To the extent that any practice can help bring that about, I'm all for it. It's also my observation that most are working on mental stability. Yes, that's why we spend so much time indirectly working on it here.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 31, 2013 19:30:16 GMT -5
Oh, and btw, I don't consider anything the opposite of beingness. It's sorta ... well, all there is. Kinda like that consciousness stuff. One can live inside vague spiritual sounding terms for quite a long time. No doubt. Just check out how long the folks here have been doing it.
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Post by laughter on Dec 31, 2013 20:27:04 GMT -5
You do realize that in order to offer any disagreement one has to literally step up as a killjoy? For me, sitting meditation is something that appears to have happened after the fact, but that's just one more B.S. story. While I support, applaud, understand and value the process that Charlotte describes, the the state of being isn't something that need be cultivated. This places what one is beyond the reach of the unhappy. This sets up an elite. This makes simply being a sort of accomplishment.It also implies that happiness leads to surrender and struggle does not. uhm ... ... wouldn't that mean that going through hell doesn't count for anything??
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Post by quinn on Jan 1, 2014 8:31:24 GMT -5
If that's what you read, you missed the point. I don't think that's implied at all. I hear her saying that we must become happy first because there is absolutely no way to get there from struggle. Maybe she uses the phrase "absolutely no way" because she doesn't really believe it herself and is hoping to convince you. "And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self..." I read that quote as: The state of unhappiness is, in itself, deep in self-hood. That's why she says we can't " be the life of no-self", as opposed to become (or 'get there', as you say). You've read that "happiness leads to surrender and struggle does not". I'm saying that's something you're adding. She doesn't say happiness leads to surrender, she says from relative happiness, one can begin to see the workings of mind. There's a significant difference.
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Post by quinn on Jan 1, 2014 8:43:36 GMT -5
When mind is quiet there really isn't any 'self business' to see as we're literally talking about a compulsive movement of thought. The best time to see, is precisely when that compulsion is in full swing and there's an interest to be clear about what that is. I didn't mean a perfectly still mind with no thoughts. I'm talking about a certain level of quiet that allows for noticing what's going on, rather than being carried away with what's going on. When the compulsion is in 'full swing', it's very difficult to see. Have you ever been full-on enraged or humiliated or awash in guilt? Typically there's not much clear seeing going on in the middle of that. It's when things quiet down and, in reflection, you can actually see what's happening. Even non-full swing reactionary behavior is difficult to see without some level of quiet.
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Post by enigma on Jan 1, 2014 11:44:34 GMT -5
I hear her saying that we must become happy first because there is absolutely no way to get there from struggle. Maybe she uses the phrase "absolutely no way" because she doesn't really believe it herself and is hoping to convince you. "And the first step we must take is to move from unhappiness to happiness. Why? Because there is absolutely no way in which an unhappy person - a person disturbed by herself or himself, by others, by situations - can be the life of no-self..." I read that quote as: The state of unhappiness is, in itself, deep in self-hood. That's why she says we can't " be the life of no-self", as opposed to become (or 'get there', as you say). I still don't know what "the life of no-self" means, so I don't get the distinction. I didn't read that. I said her comments imply that.
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Post by runstill on Jan 1, 2014 14:16:22 GMT -5
The point is this: This is a write-up about meditation quieting mind so that one is able to see what this self business is all about. The context is individual, personal, and speaking to someone where they are. The response, "Realization is unconditional" is speaking outside of that context. It would be like me saying, "Would you like half my apple?" and you saying "It's all one." Heh heh. When mind is quiet there really isn't any 'self business' to see as we're literally talking about a compulsive movement of thought. The best time to see, is precisely when that compulsion is in full swing and there's an interest to be clear about what that is. Yes that may be the most important time to' witness' as Quin phrase's it, the thoughts and rage the irresistible pull into unconsciousness . It's amazing to watch the process and even more amazing to see it sometimes disappear into nothing because of witnessing.
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