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Post by silver on Nov 18, 2013 18:54:50 GMT -5
it is my understanding that the vast majority of spiritual/philosophical thinking should be avoided, like imagining that the other side of the coin doesn't exist in order to support other imaginings.. He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. About the only time when suspending belief counts is when you're watching a magic show. It's far from reasonable to go around thinking like that. Just - be - attentive in life as much as humanly possible.
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Post by earnest on Nov 18, 2013 19:10:59 GMT -5
He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. Well, you can see one side, and feel the other side with the palm of your hand, simultaneously. If you break it down what do you get? - see one side of a coin (and maybe the edge) - feel coolness that slowly fades away Like silence says, you have to go FROM what you directly perceive TO memory, imagination or beliefs to say that the coin has a reverse side.
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Post by earnest on Nov 18, 2013 19:16:09 GMT -5
He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. About the only time when suspending belief counts is when you're watching a magic show. It's far from reasonable to go around thinking like that. Just - be - attentive in life as much as humanly possible. That is attending to life as much as humanly possible. Unreasonable? Why don't you give it a try. Of course you aren't going to go into a shop and say "Oi,. Shopkeep,. gimme a bag of Black and White Mint Humbugs,. and in return I'll give you this coin that only has one side hah HAH!"
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Post by silver on Nov 18, 2013 19:27:51 GMT -5
Well, you can see one side, and feel the other side with the palm of your hand, simultaneously. If you break it down what do you get? - see one side of a coin (and maybe the edge) - feel coolness that slowly fades away Like silence says, you have to go FROM what you directly perceive TO memory, imagination or beliefs to say that the coin has a reverse side. It just sounds like you're re-re-re-inventing the wheel.
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 18, 2013 20:17:29 GMT -5
Greetings.. it is my understanding that the vast majority of spiritual/philosophical thinking should be avoided, like imagining that the other side of the coin doesn't exist in order to support other imaginings.. He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. You have to 'believe' that the metal relief embossed onto the coin 'vanishes'.. your direct experience integrates with who/what you are, if you've have had 'direct experience' with the coin, you 'know' it doesn't vanish or reshape itself in your hand.. But, if you are trying to make a point or support beliefs, it appears useful to imagine such situations as you are describing.. the illustration you are trying to make seem valid would also leave you wondering where the sun goes each night, and it would encourage you to discard your winter wardrobe each summer.. if there is honesty and unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations.. the 'reality' is that the side of the coin you cannot see doesn't vanish, and it still exists.. the intention to make such an illustration seem valid fails when you remember how to do anything you did the day before, it fails when you can find your car in a parking lot, or when can remember that you have a car.. it's helpful to deal with reality without resorting to mind or word games to make a point or support imagined beliefs.. reality is a process, a happening, not narrowly confined by any one person's beliefs about it.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2013 20:46:26 GMT -5
Well, you can see one side, and feel the other side with the palm of your hand, simultaneously. If you break it down what do you get? - see one side of a coin (and maybe the edge) - feel coolness that slowly fades away Like silence says, you have to go FROM what you directly perceive TO memory, imagination or beliefs to say that the coin has a reverse side. Yes I agree. One way to account for what's referred to as "object-permanence" on a conceptual basis is to reconcile the unseen side of the coin to what ZD has been referring to of late as a "unified field of being". That the coin is separate from that is a function of the mind only. Any object has at the root of it an idea. When we are truly still, with no thought, without naming anything, then this, the distinction between what appears to us and what underlies that appearance, (and of course this underlying actuality can never be described and instead can only be referred to by some other such imperfect idea), becomes very clear.
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Post by lolly on Nov 18, 2013 20:49:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. You have to 'believe' that the metal relief embossed onto the coin 'vanishes'.. your direct experience integrates with who/what you are, if you've have had 'direct experience' with the coin, you 'know' it doesn't vanish or reshape itself in your hand.. But, if you are trying to make a point or support beliefs, it appears useful to imagine such situations as you are describing.. the illustration you are trying to make seem valid would also leave you wondering where the sun goes each night, and it would encourage you to discard your winter wardrobe each summer.. if there is honesty and unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations.. the 'reality' is that the side of the coin you cannot see doesn't vanish, and it still exists.. the intention to make such an illustration seem valid fails when you remember how to do anything you did the day before, it fails when you can find your car in a parking lot, or when can remember that you have a car.. it's helpful to deal with reality without resorting to mind or word games to make a point or support imagined beliefs.. reality is a process, a happening, not narrowly confined by any one person's beliefs about it.. Be well.. It's just Schrodinger's cat retold, isn't it? www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4
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Post by lolly on Nov 18, 2013 21:03:23 GMT -5
Well, you can see one side, and feel the other side with the palm of your hand, simultaneously. If you break it down what do you get? - see one side of a coin (and maybe the edge) - feel coolness that slowly fades away Like silence says, you have to go FROM what you directly perceive TO memory, imagination or beliefs to say that the coin has a reverse side. Why? I directly perceive one side with my hand while I directly perceive the other side with my eyes. True to say though, I could also imagine a coin there. Also true if I had never once experienced a coin in any way material or imaginary, I'd be ignorant of the existence of coins.
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Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2013 21:34:30 GMT -5
If you break it down what do you get? - see one side of a coin (and maybe the edge) - feel coolness that slowly fades away Like silence says, you have to go FROM what you directly perceive TO memory, imagination or beliefs to say that the coin has a reverse side. Why? I directly perceive one side with my hand while I directly perceive the other side with my eyes. It's just a different mode of perception, but the movement of mind is directly due to the senses, ie: direct experience, vs. a movement based on memory. True to say though, I could also imagine a coin there. Also true if I had never once experienced a coin in any way material or imaginary, I'd be ignorant of the existence of coins. "Coin" only comes into existence through the agency of imagination. What's actually happening is the sensory experience, that we can only describe in words by resorting to a similar agency.
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Post by lolly on Nov 18, 2013 22:08:47 GMT -5
Why? I directly perceive one side with my hand while I directly perceive the other side with my eyes. It's just a different mode of perception, but the movement of mind is directly due to the senses, ie: direct experience, vs. a movement based on memory. True to say though, I could also imagine a coin there. Also true if I had never once experienced a coin in any way material or imaginary, I'd be ignorant of the existence of coins. "Coin" only comes into existence through the agency of imagination. What's actually happening is the sensory experience, that we can only describe in words by resorting to a similar agency. Yea... the sensory experience is pretty much the entirety of evidence for the existence of coins. I'm not referring to 'coin' the name though, I refer to the actual sensations that evidence it. True enough to say that a person imagined a coin before making any though.
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Post by earnest on Nov 18, 2013 22:26:32 GMT -5
Greetings.. He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. You have to 'believe' that the metal relief embossed onto the coin 'vanishes'.. your direct experience integrates with who/what you are, if you've have had 'direct experience' with the coin, you 'know' it doesn't vanish or reshape itself in your hand.. But, if you are trying to make a point or support beliefs, it appears useful to imagine such situations as you are describing.. the illustration you are trying to make seem valid would also leave you wondering where the sun goes each night, and it would encourage you to discard your winter wardrobe each summer.. if there is honesty and unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations.. the 'reality' is that the side of the coin you cannot see doesn't vanish, and it still exists.. the intention to make such an illustration seem valid fails when you remember how to do anything you did the day before, it fails when you can find your car in a parking lot, or when can remember that you have a car.. it's helpful to deal with reality without resorting to mind or word games to make a point or support imagined beliefs.. reality is a process, a happening, not narrowly confined by any one person's beliefs about it.. Be well.. I don't see any beliefs in what I'm doing with the coin. What I experience is what I see, the textured surface of the coin, and what I feel, the temperature. In that moment, there is no taste to the coin, no smell or sound. In that moment, the rest is referring back to either a memory or a belief. To your point about where does the sun go, what to do with clothes out of the current season, is my car outside etc. I don't have any issue with beliefs about the whereabouts of my car, or will summer follow spring. All that stuff does a great job in helping me function in the world. I would be a total numpty to throw away what I've learnt through experience, eg fires are hot, brown snakes are poisonous. To your line "unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations" That's what I think I am actually doing. Going directly and what is perceived through the senses RIGHT NOW. "the illustration you are trying to make seem valid" - what is more valid than what I am experiencing? I am totally not looking to make a point or support a belief. My interest is in seeing things as they are. To be frank (and not being a smart ar$e) this is what I find when I approach the world with a still and quiet mind (although that is not mandatory) Something that comes to mind, but may be completely unrelated, is memories of being outside at the beach on a starry summer night when I was 18 or so. The tide was out and the stars were reflected on the thin sheen of water covering the sand. Looking down I wondered what it would be like to be actually looking down into the stars (not standing on a beach looking a reflection) then I looked up and wondered was I looking up into the sky with the earth under my feet, or was I stuck to the earth looking down at the stars. This gave me a tangible jolt of falling into uncertainty.
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Post by laughter on Nov 18, 2013 22:37:28 GMT -5
It's just a different mode of perception, but the movement of mind is directly due to the senses, ie: direct experience, vs. a movement based on memory. "Coin" only comes into existence through the agency of imagination. What's actually happening is the sensory experience, that we can only describe in words by resorting to a similar agency. Yea... the sensory experience is pretty much the entirety of evidence for the existence of coins. I'm not referring to 'coin' the name though, I refer to the actual sensations that evidence it. True enough to say that a person imagined a coin before making any though. All we're doing here is repeating the lead-up to Q's qualia theory. ... it's a beautiful thing because you can step back from it after you appreciate it and point to it and say ... "conceptual structure".
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Post by silence on Nov 18, 2013 23:38:20 GMT -5
Greetings.. He's pointing out to you that it's the opposite. Knowing anything about the other side of the coin requires you to imagine/remember/believe that when you turn it over there will be what you expect to be there. You have to 'believe' that the metal relief embossed onto the coin 'vanishes'.. your direct experience integrates with who/what you are, if you've have had 'direct experience' with the coin, you 'know' it doesn't vanish or reshape itself in your hand.. But, if you are trying to make a point or support beliefs, it appears useful to imagine such situations as you are describing.. the illustration you are trying to make seem valid would also leave you wondering where the sun goes each night, and it would encourage you to discard your winter wardrobe each summer.. if there is honesty and unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations.. the 'reality' is that the side of the coin you cannot see doesn't vanish, and it still exists.. the intention to make such an illustration seem valid fails when you remember how to do anything you did the day before, it fails when you can find your car in a parking lot, or when can remember that you have a car.. it's helpful to deal with reality without resorting to mind or word games to make a point or support imagined beliefs.. reality is a process, a happening, not narrowly confined by any one person's beliefs about it.. Be well.. The point of course is not to render yourself helpless and unable to remember what to do the next day or pretend you don't know about the tails side of a coin. It's a very simply point being made about the many layers of thought and belief that are hopelessly tied up with one's experience. It is also this very point that makes one's experience totally unreliable as a means of discovering what's true. Beyond even the fact that you do not know what is on the flip side of a coin without the aid of memory and belief, you do not and can not even recognize a coin as a separate object without the use of thought. Your entire experience from top to bottom is being weaved together in a giant tapestry of thought and belief and you don't even recognize this.
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Post by lolly on Nov 18, 2013 23:54:12 GMT -5
Yea... the sensory experience is pretty much the entirety of evidence for the existence of coins. I'm not referring to 'coin' the name though, I refer to the actual sensations that evidence it. True enough to say that a person imagined a coin before making any though. All we're doing here is repeating the lead-up to Q's qualia theory. ::) ... it's a beautiful thing because you can step back from it after you appreciate it and point to it and say ... "conceptual structure". :D I'm more concerned with what I can buy. I can't spend my imaginary coins. I can spend the one that creates a convincing sensation though... maybe hypnotism?
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 19, 2013 6:25:20 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. You have to 'believe' that the metal relief embossed onto the coin 'vanishes'.. your direct experience integrates with who/what you are, if you've have had 'direct experience' with the coin, you 'know' it doesn't vanish or reshape itself in your hand.. But, if you are trying to make a point or support beliefs, it appears useful to imagine such situations as you are describing.. the illustration you are trying to make seem valid would also leave you wondering where the sun goes each night, and it would encourage you to discard your winter wardrobe each summer.. if there is honesty and unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations.. the 'reality' is that the side of the coin you cannot see doesn't vanish, and it still exists.. the intention to make such an illustration seem valid fails when you remember how to do anything you did the day before, it fails when you can find your car in a parking lot, or when can remember that you have a car.. it's helpful to deal with reality without resorting to mind or word games to make a point or support imagined beliefs.. reality is a process, a happening, not narrowly confined by any one person's beliefs about it.. Be well.. I don't see any beliefs in what I'm doing with the coin. What I experience is what I see, the textured surface of the coin, and what I feel, the temperature. In that moment, there is no taste to the coin, no smell or sound. In that moment, the rest is referring back to either a memory or a belief. To your point about where does the sun go, what to do with clothes out of the current season, is my car outside etc. I don't have any issue with beliefs about the whereabouts of my car, or will summer follow spring. All that stuff does a great job in helping me function in the world. I would be a total numpty to throw away what I've learnt through experience, eg fires are hot, brown snakes are poisonous. To your line "unconditional sincerity in the discussion we are having, we would let go of the effort expended to create illusions from imagined situations" That's what I think I am actually doing. Going directly and what is perceived through the senses RIGHT NOW. "the illustration you are trying to make seem valid" - what is more valid than what I am experiencing? I am totally not looking to make a point or support a belief. My interest is in seeing things as they are. To be frank (and not being a smart ar$e) this is what I find when I approach the world with a still and quiet mind (although that is not mandatory) Something that comes to mind, but may be completely unrelated, is memories of being outside at the beach on a starry summer night when I was 18 or so. The tide was out and the stars were reflected on the thin sheen of water covering the sand. Looking down I wondered what it would be like to be actually looking down into the stars (not standing on a beach looking a reflection) then I looked up and wondered was I looking up into the sky with the earth under my feet, or was I stuck to the earth looking down at the stars. This gave me a tangible jolt of falling into uncertainty. How do you define 'now'? it isn't a 'point', is it? people define 'now' in very broad set of definition.. some say that 'it's all now', others say that in it the unmeasureable instant of existence, and i understand it as relative.. 'now' is relative to the experience of it, the flash of lightning is instantaneous while the rumble of thunder may last for many seconds.. talk to athletes who regularly slip into the 'zone', time slows way down as the fighter sees a punch coming so slowly that the evade/intercept and counter seems effortless, but to the observer it happens as quick blur.. the basketball player slips between defenders so quickly and gracefully that to see it in slow motion it looks like ballet.. time/now is a variable that varies by the experiencer's choice of definitions.. when the coin is in your hand, the experience/now of it is the duration of the sensory perception, and.. when you put the coin in your pocket you forget about it until the next stimulus that brings the coin into your awareness, and i suppose it can be construed to say that the 'coin doesn't exist' in your awareness for the duration of the forgetfulness, but.. the consistency of its reappearance as inspired by some stimulus is fairly valid evidence that it really didn't vanish.. When you were 18, and looking at the stars, didn't 'now' seem eternal? it's still with you, even 'now', isn't it.. defining 'now' to suit a set of condition needed to 'make a point' is a useful expedient for that intention, and it is also useful to embrace the experience in its entirety, without the mental gymnastics needed to 'make the point'.. Be well..
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