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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2013 1:09:20 GMT -5
How does cultivation of a particular outlook work free of the opposite polarity? It requires effort. ... you mean ... like this ...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 1:11:44 GMT -5
To that last bit, Niz and others have talked about what they called the Way of the Bird, and the Way of the Ant.....for the Way of the Ant, there is a path, a sure and steady and reliable one. The Way of the Bird needs no "path" and happens suddenly, though it does seem that placing the fruit in the sun so to speak may be of use. For obvious reasons in our consumer I want it Right Now society, the Way of the Ant is set aside, even shunned, despite its almost guaranteed "results". The Way of the Bird is much more loved, despite the fact that it seems so hit or miss. To the first bit....agreed for the most part, but even in the spiritual awakening field (which is very closely connected to LOA) its hard for anything to happen when one is closed off in negativity, because an aspect of negativity is strong attachments and clung to beliefs.
Even Gautama, who by all accounts was in a pretty negative frame of mind under that Bodhi Tree, had to let go of everything, including the negativity for realization. But again, I don 't want to over emphasize a positive outlook with regards to realization...and I certainly don't want anyone developing attachments...bit a positive attitude rately hurts or hinders, while a negative outlook very often does. Tell that to Eckhart Tolle! Very few people allow themselves to hit that kind of rock bottom where you surrender utterly everything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 1:21:39 GMT -5
But isn't there a difference if this quality arises naturally after noticing the unnecessarily negative on one hand, and artificially seizing on and clinging to the positive, on the other? Is the original state positive? Negative? Is it both? Neither? I'd say the natural state can comes across as positive because that's what everyone is naturally drawn to. Check this out: content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2074067,00.html the brain is hardwired for positivity and optimism...its a survival thing....its called optimism bias. we are wired so that the "natural state" is generally positive, even irrationally so.
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Post by acewall on Oct 23, 2013 1:41:38 GMT -5
Most people come to enjoy denial, sooner or later. I think it could be as their back-seat is so far back they see the funny-side of expression. For you then, when you see mirage expressed in words, in text...do you not comment as a Camel-tenderer? not always! then what do you do with this... the camel and its tenderer are One.
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Post by acewall on Oct 23, 2013 1:44:29 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Positive outlook as opposed to negative. Open to as opposed to shutting out. "This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment". I'm not so sure about 'should'. That raises the Hume problem of 'is' and 'ought'. Hume questioned if you can only presume what ought to be based on what presently is, or on what was in the past. That implies that what we think should be is merely a reaction to current circumstances, which in itself arose from circumstances which arose in the past. I'm now questioning if we can say what life 'should' without basing that on discontentment with life as it is. Life just needs to stay alive and culture aliveness in others, who smoulder at times never busting into flame. Aliveness is like fire. Australia is on-fire here at present!
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Post by lolly on Oct 23, 2013 2:35:58 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Positive outlook as opposed to negative. Open to as opposed to shutting out. "This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment". I'm not so sure about 'should'. That raises the Hume problem of 'is' and 'ought'. Hume questioned if you can only presume what ought to be based on what presently is, or on what was in the past. That implies that what we think should be is merely a reaction to current circumstances, which in itself arose from circumstances which arose in the past. I'm now questioning if we can say what life 'should' without basing that on discontentment with life as it is. Life just needs to stay alive and culture aliveness in others, who smoulder at times never busting into flame. Aliveness is like fire. Australia is on-fire here at present! I guess a lot of life will burst into flames in the fires.
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Post by acewall on Oct 23, 2013 4:17:36 GMT -5
Life just needs to stay alive and culture aliveness in others, who smoulder at times never busting into flame. Aliveness is like fire. Australia is on-fire here at present! I guess a lot of life will burst into flames in the fires. FIRE is an interesting element. Have you ever had a raging fire in your chest? I am up-to death by fire in my novel at present, a young lassie, 14years old back in 1843.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2013 11:31:46 GMT -5
then what do you do with this... the camel and its tenderer are One. to the exclusion of all else?
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Post by enigma on Oct 23, 2013 19:35:35 GMT -5
The importance of a positive mental outlook. The presence of an overriding negative mental outlook blinds one to many possibilities of discovery and awakening. There is a reason that throughout antiquity gurus have said to make this path a serious GAME...
This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment.
Joy and positivity are open and spacious feeling for a reason...because they ARE open and spacious, and allow for light to come in. On the other side of the coin, negativity, bitterness, and capriciousness feel closed and shut off for a reason....because they are a closing off and shutting out of the light so to speak. And the more one clings to a negative outlook, the more they shut out. Embrace joy and a positive spirit of discovery and adventure and awakening on this path, without "clinging" or developing an attachment to to any of it :-) Don't you think everybody would 'embrace joy' if they could?
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Post by enigma on Oct 23, 2013 20:07:53 GMT -5
There is a difference between pleasure, and Joy or Bliss. Pleasure is always passing, always a swing of the pendalum from pleasure to pain Pleasure is always balanced by pain, its the natural order. But joy, bliss, contentment, these things can keep building and building with no requisit swing to the dark side so to speak.A meaningless sexual encounter with a sexy somebody, over indulgence in rich foods, and evening of drunken debauchery, defeating a perceived enemy, all these things bring pleasure and pain. Freedom from attachments, realizations that let go of cling to beliefs, the joy of charity and kindness, opening to the ever present Grace of God, all these things and others like them bring joy and bliss, with no acompanying swing to pain. I guess it depends on eggzacly what one means by that, but in general I say no. Lots of meditators experience bliss, and then lose it, and it pretty much dualistically sucks. Joy is typically defined as the dualistic opposite to sorrow. If you were to refer the Peace that passeth all understandingeth, I would agree.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 20:09:31 GMT -5
The importance of a positive mental outlook. The presence of an overriding negative mental outlook blinds one to many possibilities of discovery and awakening. There is a reason that throughout antiquity gurus have said to make this path a serious GAME...
This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment.
Joy and positivity are open and spacious feeling for a reason...because they ARE open and spacious, and allow for light to come in. On the other side of the coin, negativity, bitterness, and capriciousness feel closed and shut off for a reason....because they are a closing off and shutting out of the light so to speak. And the more one clings to a negative outlook, the more they shut out. Embrace joy and a positive spirit of discovery and adventure and awakening on this path, without "clinging" or developing an attachment to to any of it :-) Don't you think everybody would 'embrace joy' if they could? They can....its a choice, a selection ;-) As an aside....the peace and bliss/joy that comes from meditation does swing back to sorrow....and the more you meditate the more the joy/bliss builds and sustains
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2013 20:14:30 GMT -5
There is a difference between pleasure, and Joy or Bliss. Pleasure is always passing, always a swing of the pendalum from pleasure to pain Pleasure is always balanced by pain, its the natural order. But joy, bliss, contentment, these things can keep building and building with no requisit swing to the dark side so to speak.A meaningless sexual encounter with a sexy somebody, over indulgence in rich foods, and evening of drunken debauchery, defeating a perceived enemy, all these things bring pleasure and pain. Freedom from attachments, realizations that let go of cling to beliefs, the joy of charity and kindness, opening to the ever present Grace of God, all these things and others like them bring joy and bliss, with no acompanying swing to pain. I guess it depends on eggzacly what one means by that, but in general I say no. Lots of meditators experience bliss, and then lose it, and it pretty much dualistically sucks. Joy is typically defined as the dualistic opposite to sorrow. If you were to refer the Peace that passeth all understandingeth, I would agree. Vigyan Bhairav Tantra: 9. ... suck something and become the sucking.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 20:15:34 GMT -5
There is a difference between pleasure, and Joy or Bliss. Pleasure is always passing, always a swing of the pendalum from pleasure to pain Pleasure is always balanced by pain, its the natural order. But joy, bliss, contentment, these things can keep building and building with no requisit swing to the dark side so to speak.A meaningless sexual encounter with a sexy somebody, over indulgence in rich foods, and evening of drunken debauchery, defeating a perceived enemy, all these things bring pleasure and pain. Freedom from attachments, realizations that let go of cling to beliefs, the joy of charity and kindness, opening to the ever present Grace of God, all these things and others like them bring joy and bliss, with no acompanying swing to pain. I guess it depends on eggzacly what one means by that, but in general I say no. Lots of meditators experience bliss, and then lose it, and it pretty much dualistically sucks. Joy is typically defined as the dualistic opposite to sorrow. If you were to refer the Peace that passeth all understandingeth, I would agree. Whatever...I'm not picky about words ;-)
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Post by acewall on Oct 23, 2013 20:16:13 GMT -5
then what do you do with this... the camel and its tenderer are One. to the exclusion of all else? then the Camel attendant is riddled with flea-like concepts in his mind which he still needs to read the map across the Sahara.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 20:17:32 GMT -5
I guess it depends on eggzacly what one means by that, but in general I say no. Lots of meditators experience bliss, and then lose it, and it pretty much dualistically sucks. Joy is typically defined as the dualistic opposite to sorrow. If you were to refer the Peace that passeth all understandingeth, I would agree. Vigyan Bhairav Tantra: 9. ... suck something and become the sucking.
Lmao.... thats actually a pretty cool method believe it or not...there is this feeling of Power, Alertness, and Vitality that wells up in you as a side effect of that one
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