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Post by lolly on Oct 22, 2013 23:22:44 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Positive outlook as opposed to negative. Open to as opposed to shutting out.
"This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment".
I'm not so sure about 'should'. That raises the Hume problem of 'is' and 'ought'. Hume questioned if you can only presume what ought to be based on what presently is, or on what was in the past. That implies that what we think should be is merely a reaction to current circumstances, which in itself arose from circumstances which arose in the past.
I'm now questioning if we can say what life 'should' without basing that on discontentment with life as it is.
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Post by silver on Oct 22, 2013 23:38:13 GMT -5
In some ways this path is the path of expansion of awareness, a great inclusivity so to speak. When one is clinging to a bitter little pill and focused on it, when one is generally in a state of negativity, one is not receptive and open to much, if any inclusivity or receptiveness to insight, or expansion of awareness. When one is generally in a positive state, one is open, and receptive, and open to insight and expansion of awareness. Positivity does not necessarily create insight or expand awareness etc...but it is a more fertile ground than the closed-ness of negativity. As long as there is ground, fertile or otherwise, there is a ground for self-reference. A place for the false I to stand. Pull the latch on the trap door. The best ground is midair. Hey, what's so bad about feeling good?
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Post by laughter on Oct 22, 2013 23:53:04 GMT -5
As long as there is ground, fertile or otherwise, there is a ground for self-reference. A place for the false I to stand. Pull the latch on the trap door. The best ground is midair. Hey, what's so bad about feeling good? Nothing bad about feeling good, because pleasure is ... pleasure. ... and that wasn't what I was writing about, btw ... It's always temporary though, and it's always measured against the swing in the other direction. It can also draw one into an endless search for it, and too much of it jades the one who is temporarily fulfilled. An interesting question, one that the mind will make a mess of every time: is pleasure just the absence of pain?
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Post by silver on Oct 22, 2013 23:58:59 GMT -5
Hey, what's so bad about feeling good? Nothing bad about feeling good, because pleasure is ... pleasure. ... and that wasn't what I was writing about, btw ... It's always temporary though, and it's always measured against the swing in the other direction. It can also draw one into an endless search for it, and too much of it jades the one who is temporarily fulfilled. An interesting question, one that the mind will make a mess of every time: is pleasure just the absence of pain? Ha ha -- You should know by now that I'm not that deep -- It's also a song title -- tried finding it on Youtube, but it wasn't there -- by Wang Chung.
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Post by silver on Oct 23, 2013 0:00:41 GMT -5
Hey, what's so bad about feeling good? Nothing bad about feeling good, because pleasure is ... pleasure. ... and that wasn't what I was writing about, btw ... It's always temporary though, and it's always measured against the swing in the other direction. It can also draw one into an endless search for it, and too much of it jades the one who is temporarily fulfilled. An interesting question, one that the mind will make a mess of every time: is pleasure just the absence of pain? And no, pleasure isn't just the absence of pain -- it's joy of existence - joy of living. silly wabbit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 0:12:29 GMT -5
There is a difference between pleasure, and Joy or Bliss.
Pleasure is always passing, always a swing of the pendalum from pleasure to pain
Pleasure is always balanced by pain, its the natural order.
But joy, bliss, contentment, these things can keep building and building with no requisit swing to the dark side so to speak.
A meaningless sexual encounter with a sexy somebody, over indulgence in rich foods, and evening of drunken debauchery, defeating a perceived enemy, all these things bring pleasure and pain.
Freedom from attachments, realizations that let go of cling to beliefs, the joy of charity and kindness, opening to the ever present Grace of God, all these things and others like them bring joy and bliss, with no acompanying swing to pain.
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Post by silver on Oct 23, 2013 0:22:56 GMT -5
There is a difference between pleasure, and Joy or Bliss. Pleasure is always passing, always a swing of the pendalum from pleasure to pain Pleasure is always balanced by pain, its the natural order. But joy, bliss, contentment, these things can keep building and building with no requisit swing to the dark side so to speak. A meaningless sexual encounter with a sexy somebody, over indulgence in rich foods, and evening of drunken debauchery, defeating a perceived enemy, all these things bring pleasure and pain. Freedom from attachments, realizations that let go of cling to beliefs, the joy of charity and kindness, opening to the ever present Grace of God, all these things and others like them bring joy and bliss, with no acompanying swing to pain. Hi steve. I mostly agree with all that -- but I don't know how wise it is or appropriate it is, to give pleasure a bad name. I think that we can consider the things that bring us joy etc., can also bring about pleasurable feelings. (Yep, just more semantics.)
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Post by Reefs on Oct 23, 2013 0:42:35 GMT -5
The importance of a positive mental outlook. The presence of an overriding negative mental outlook blinds one to many possibilities of discovery and awakening. There is a reason that throughout antiquity gurus have said to make this path a serious GAME...
This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment.
Joy and positivity are open and spacious feeling for a reason...because they ARE open and spacious, and allow for light to come in. On the other side of the coin, negativity, bitterness, and capriciousness feel closed and shut off for a reason....because they are a closing off and shutting out of the light so to speak. And the more one clings to a negative outlook, the more they shut out. Embrace joy and a positive spirit of discovery and adventure and awakening on this path, without "clinging" or developing an attachment to to any of it :-) If we are talking in the context of awakening/enlightenment/realization then the mental outlook doesn't matter at all. If we are talking about personal growth then the outlook is extremely important, of course. (LOA). And I agree, if there's a path, it should be joyful. Suffering yourself into bliss sounds absurd. But ... is there a path?
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Post by Reefs on Oct 23, 2013 0:46:21 GMT -5
How does cultivation of a particular outlook work free of the opposite polarity? It requires effort.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 23, 2013 0:48:03 GMT -5
its a quality of life that enhances ones awareness. When we are driving in hard on ourself, we are blocking the life-flow ie, coming down on oneself. Sitting on the hatch life comes up-through is like depression. Positive is liberating life and non-attachment frees the identity back to its original state so that it can begin to unravel the mysteries of its Mind, that which it created soon after birth. But isn't there a difference if this quality arises naturally after noticing the unnecessarily negative on one hand, and artificially seizing on and clinging to the positive, on the other? Is the original state positive? Negative? Is it both? Neither? I'd say the natural state can comes across as positive because that's what everyone is naturally drawn to.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2013 0:50:33 GMT -5
But isn't there a difference if this quality arises naturally after noticing the unnecessarily negative on one hand, and artificially seizing on and clinging to the positive, on the other? Is the original state positive? Negative? Is it both? Neither? I'd say the natural state can comes across as positive because that's what everyone is naturally drawn to. Yes, I can see how it might come across that way!
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Post by Reefs on Oct 23, 2013 0:54:21 GMT -5
I'd say the natural state can comes across as positive because that's what everyone is naturally drawn to. Yes, I can see how it might come across that way! Yeah, so instead of positive thinking and a positive outlook (which is a doing) we should rather talk about natural thinking and a natural outlook.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2013 0:58:36 GMT -5
Yes, I can see how it might come across that way! Yeah, so instead of positive thinking and a positive outlook (which is a doing) we should rather talk about natural thinking and a natural outlook. The natural outlook sees the false as false, regardless if that falsity is positive or negative.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 0:58:59 GMT -5
The importance of a positive mental outlook. The presence of an overriding negative mental outlook blinds one to many possibilities of discovery and awakening. There is a reason that throughout antiquity gurus have said to make this path a serious GAME...
This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment.
Joy and positivity are open and spacious feeling for a reason...because they ARE open and spacious, and allow for light to come in. On the other side of the coin, negativity, bitterness, and capriciousness feel closed and shut off for a reason....because they are a closing off and shutting out of the light so to speak. And the more one clings to a negative outlook, the more they shut out. Embrace joy and a positive spirit of discovery and adventure and awakening on this path, without "clinging" or developing an attachment to to any of it :-) If we are talking in the context of awakening/enlightenment/realization then the mental outlook doesn't matter at all. If we are talking about personal growth then the outlook is extremely important, of course. (LOA). And I agree, if there's a path, it should be joyful. Suffering yourself into bliss sounds absurd. But ... is there a path?To that last bit, Niz and others have talked about what they called the Way of the Bird, and the Way of the Ant.....for the Way of the Ant, there is a path, a sure and steady and reliable one. The Way of the Bird needs no "path" and happens suddenly, though it does seem that placing the fruit in the sun so to speak may be of use. For obvious reasons in our consumer I want it Right Now society, the Way of the Ant is set aside, even shunned, despite its almost guaranteed "results". The Way of the Bird is much more loved, despite the fact that it seems so hit or miss. To the first bit....agreed for the most part, but even in the spiritual awakening field (which is very closely connected to LOA) its hard for anything to happen when one is closed off in negativity, because an aspect of negativity is strong attachments and clung to beliefs. Even Gautama, who by all accounts was in a pretty negative frame of mind under that Bodhi Tree, had to let go of everything, including the negativity for realization. But again, I don 't want to over emphasize a positive outlook with regards to realization...and I certainly don't want anyone developing attachments...but a positive attitude rarely hurts or hinders, while a negative outlook very often does.
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Post by laughter on Oct 23, 2013 1:03:21 GMT -5
If we are talking in the context of awakening/enlightenment/realization then the mental outlook doesn't matter at all. If we are talking about personal growth then the outlook is extremely important, of course. (LOA). And I agree, if there's a path, it should be joyful. Suffering yourself into bliss sounds absurd. But ... is there a path?To that last bit, Niz and others have talked about what they called the Way of the Bird, and the Way of the Ant.....for the Way of the Ant, there is a path, a sure and steady and reliable one. The Way of the Bird needs no "path" and happens suddenly, though it does seem that placing the fruit in the sun so to speak may be of use. For obvious reasons in our consumer I want it Right Now society, the Way of the Ant is set aside, even shunned, despite its almost guaranteed "results". The Way of the Bird is much more loved, despite the fact that it seems so hit or miss. To the first bit....agreed for the most part, but even in the spiritual awakening field (which is very closely connected to LOA) its hard for anything to happen when one is closed off in negativity, because an aspect of negativity is strong attachments and clung to beliefs.
Even Gautama, who by all accounts was in a pretty negative frame of mind under that Bodhi Tree, had to let go of everything, including the negativity for realization. But again, I don 't want to over emphasize a positive outlook with regards to realization...and I certainly don't want anyone developing attachments...bit a positive attitude rately hurts or hinders, while a negative outlook very often does. Tell that to Eckhart Tolle!
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