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Post by acewall on Oct 19, 2013 6:12:30 GMT -5
a person with no-beliefs is free of belief...is that what you mean by NO?
What's all this other stuff about.
No is no is no
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 19, 2013 6:22:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. a person with no-beliefs is free of belief...is that what you mean by NO? What's all this other stuff about. No is no is no Just accept the 'no' you understand.. the other 'stuff' was for those with the capacity for letting go of their attachments.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 7:36:11 GMT -5
Greetings.. It is fundamentally an idea about a separate, volitional individual which is identified with, and therefore leads to the fear of death and various other illusions. It is not more than an idea. You have a persistent inclination of presuming your beliefs apply to others, they don't.. 1. While I am sincerely Sympathetic with the charge, I just don't see it as helpful in any way. A strongly held belief will always be unconsciously based and therefore not seen as a belief. Plus it can quite easily and naturally be reflected right back at you, in the same unhelpful way. 2. Because someone else's view doesn't match your own experience doesn't necessarily mean that it is a belief that they are expressing. You simply can not know another's experience. 3. Therefore, it seems to me to be more accurate to say something like: 'what you are saying doesn't match my own experience. To adopt such a view would be adopting a belief on my part.' 4. Better yet, since you are founding all of this on a genuine curiosity, maybe adopt an approach of asking questions of the other to see why they are expressing the view that they are. 5. All that said, I also see the value in challenging beliefs. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 9:02:21 GMT -5
I agree and intuitively I would say it's sort of a lack of confidence, not being arrogant enough, not trusting oneself enough. All this spiritual discernment business is like reading a physics book, okay it's interesting but I don't really care and I don't seriously expect it to get me anything. I think Max is like everyone, he does care, but it seems that the mind has been confused by all the blah blah and the attention/energy is going to some place where it's imagined that some calculated effort will produce some result, but that's not even really believed in, hence it's all half-ássed and half-cooked. That's why I asked why not be honest and acknowledge one's own psychological truth and just say to hell with all that and be 100% a stupid and ignorant ego/self/whatever. One can't reason with or cheat the psychological truth. Spiritual teachers sometimes say that one has to find one's own question (koan). Some people claim that they don't have one, I would say they do have one but it's really ugly and stupid, namely the psychological truth. There's something that I think most everyone spends a lot of time avoiding. And really it's the fact that you're 100% alone in all of it. Yes, you can talk to other people about what's going on with you and compare notes and read teachings. But at the end of the day, one must discard all of that and stop running from themselves. Face the aspects of themselves they push away and find the confidence and inner authority that doesn't need anything from anyone, including their own thoughts. When or if this happens, the theoretical discussions are nothing but a major sideshow. There really IS something genuine to all of this nonsense but it's not anything anyone can give you or tell you about. The 100% alone point is good. I've noticed feelings (my own) of discomort here at ST when there is quiet or when I haven't had a whole lot of replies. There's some internal questioning about moving on. But the pattern seems to be that rather than moving on I'll post some sort of question instead. There appears to be an avoidance of aloneness and solitude? Or maybe its just an interest in social interaction of some sort. Not sure. I've also felt some discomfort when wrangling with the question of motivation. Why am I engaging in this innquiry, talking about ATA or effortless mediation or whatever; clarifying theories and models and pointers? I can point to procrastination, but that doesn't explain this Saturday morning, there's nothing I'm putting off right now really of substance. At work, that case can be made. There's curiosity. That's real. But of course there are many areas in which I am curious. One thing is that I want to know what others are referring to in such lofty language. I find it hard to genuinely use purity or perfection or totality or unity or universe when describing my experience (much less God). The fact that some do use these words makes me wonder if I am missing out on something huge. So I make time to sit alone or pay attention to whatever is happening. It's realaxing, calming, pleasant. But unity, oneness, Love, God?? Even stillness and silence seem like a stretch. Absent being able to authentically use those descriptors for my own experience, I try other things. Investigating beliefs, pondering koans. David Scoma mentions finding the 'motivation of motivation.' What lies beneath? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 9:06:01 GMT -5
I can't wait to tell my wife that my spiritual work is going to shift to beIng more arrogant and reactive. Ramp up opinions and authority. in b4 TRUTH AT ANY COST. Doesn't fit your model very well. |
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Post by lolly on Oct 19, 2013 9:19:54 GMT -5
Yep, all the truths and pointers are ideas, and everyone has values and beliefs.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 19, 2013 9:45:28 GMT -5
Just thinking out loud. I listened to part of an J Katz interview with Fred Davis this morning. Mr. Davis was talking openly about ego. How, before awakening to the falsehood of self, it was confused and driven primarily through addiction, and transferring addiction. After awakening, it continued and manifested as wanting to be a spiritual teacher. And it continues to this day, though appears to have less intensity to it. When the teacher is ready the student appears. '-) sdp |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 19, 2013 10:16:18 GMT -5
It must not want to see through itself. And all the enlightened people let it learn all their tricks. So now it romps and plays with the enlightenment people. Free to make a big mess of things if it doesn't get it's way. It knows the enlightened people are going to try to tear down any belief it proclaims. Good little ego.  Ego isn't alive. It doesn't want or not want or romp or play or make a mess. This isn't particularly directed to E alone. There have been a lot of comments which indicate that ego is some kind of ephemeral wispy thingy. It isn't. What constitutes ego? Ego is alive and well in the neural network in your brain. Ego hangs together by neurons firing together. Back at least as early as the '70's Krishnamurti talked about when we change there is an actual change in the physical brain. Neuroscientists at the time didn't even believe this and there wasn't a name for this in neuroscience. Then Eric Kandel began exploring this area and won the Nobel prize in physiology in 2000 for what is now known as neuroplasticity. We now know that the brain grows new neurons every day (we used to think that the neurons we have we have for life, no new neurons) and that we can actually change because of the brains ability to create new neurons and make new connections between neurons. Point, ego is very real and very alive, not just some wispy nothing. Enlightenment can occur localized in a certain spatial configuration, let's call it the physical body. Now, that "enlightenment" may not be directly connected to the neural structure, which is the reason enlightened people can still be crappy and do crappy things. However, post-enlightenment or coincidental with it, real work can be done in altering the neural structure of the brain, IOW, we can *use* neuroplasticity to lessen or even eliminate the influence of ego. As we are now, life and events and other people and even our own brain pulls the strings of ego and we dance to outward influences. But we can be different. But what is possible is not easy. Changing is "like a mosquito trying to bite an iron bull". sdp |
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 19, 2013 10:20:24 GMT -5
Greetings..
'Ego' is a belief, a set of values and ideas that creates an imaginary character that we can blame our unwanted traits on..
it's the you you wish you weren't, but you are..
Be well..
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Post by runstill on Oct 19, 2013 10:31:54 GMT -5
It was kind of a tease about your avatar.   Count again Oh now I get it I thought that was a woman with four eyes pointing a gun at me , whew... she is just pointing a gun and wearing her makeup in a odd way feel much better! ....  |
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Post by Reefs on Oct 19, 2013 11:16:48 GMT -5
'Ego' is a belief, a set of values and ideas that creates an imaginary character that we can blame our unwanted traits on.. it's the you you wish you weren't, but you are.. Ce n'est pas possible!  |
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Post by enigma on Oct 19, 2013 11:34:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. It is fundamentally an idea about a separate, volitional individual which is identified with, and therefore leads to the fear of death and various other illusions. It is not more than an idea. You have a persistent inclination of presuming your beliefs apply to others, they don't.. A separate volitional person exists, and rather than your description of being "identified with", i understand the relationship as 'acknowledging'.. from my perspective, the separate, volitional individual is one of many aspects of the whole person, and of the collective whole of all persons.. you maintain a narrowly defined belief about people, and you remain resistant to any open honest discussion about your beliefs unless the discussion agrees to your preferred terminologies.. Nothing you or anyone posts is "more than an idea", the issue is whether or not the 'idea' represents what is actually happening, what is real.. i suggest that people look and see for themselves, you insist that you know the 'truth'.. i understand that there is no 'truth', only a work in progress, to which we are included participants in the work and the progress through our interactive experiences of Life happening.. you are attached to your conditional belief about 'truth', i am attached to paying unconditional attention to what is happening.. BE well.. I wasn't talking to you. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 11:46:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. 'Ego' is a belief, a set of values and ideas that creates an imaginary character that we can blame our unwanted traits on.. it's the you you wish you weren't, but you are.. Be well.. Yeah, ego is a device, but it doesn't actually create an imaginary character... It doesn't have to because I'm the one who's giving it authority... It's what I choose and it's also why the ego can't answer the question "What Am I"? |
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Post by silence on Oct 19, 2013 13:12:32 GMT -5
The 100% alone point is good. I've noticed feelings (my own) of discomort here at ST when there is quiet or when I haven't had a whole lot of replies. There's some internal questioning about moving on. But the pattern seems to be that rather than moving on I'll post some sort of question instead. There appears to be an avoidance of aloneness and solitude? Or maybe its just an interest in social interaction of some sort. Not sure. I've also felt some discomfort when wrangling with the question of motivation. Why am I engaging in this innquiry, talking about ATA or effortless mediation or whatever; clarifying theories and models and pointers? I can point to procrastination, but that doesn't explain this Saturday morning, there's nothing I'm putting off right now really of substance. At work, that case can be made. There's curiosity. That's real. But of course there are many areas in which I am curious. In a way, the entire spiritual search from beginning to end could be characterized as an avoidance of silence. Not the type of silence where you have to get into a sound proof room but the inner silence that once you begin to approach, you become uncomfortable as as you describe. If there was ever something to be curious about, it's why that brings discomfort. One thing is that I want to know what others are referring to in such lofty language. I find it hard to genuinely use purity or perfection or totality or unity or universe when describing my experience (much less God). The fact that some do use these words makes me wonder if I am missing out on something huge. Well, the fact of the matter is that you'll never actually know what anyone here is experiencing. It's a dead end road. Just as with the Segal lady, anyone can interpret their experience in any way they choose. Out comes Jesus was in my bedroom with me or I just had a unity experience with the universe. It doesn't matter as it's how the conditioning is unfolding. It will never unfold in such a way ever again. Mostly, the words you're picking out are a distraction. Yes, they can be used to talk about things in a very particular way but they are really not descriptors of people's nonstop experience. Nobody is sitting here being blown away around the clock. So I make time to sit alone or pay attention to whatever is happening. It's realaxing, calming, pleasant. But unity, oneness, Love, God?? Even stillness and silence seem like a stretch. Absent being able to authentically use those descriptors for my own experience, I try other things. Investigating beliefs, pondering koans. David Scoma mentions finding the 'motivation of motivation.' What lies beneath? I think there's also a misunderstanding at play. You're hearing people talk about pointers and seem to be interpreting this as people describing their experience. These words seem to become like shiny fish hooks that people get caught on. Tzu has been chasing Enigma around for what looks like years now over just a couple of them. Talk from where you're at without any shame and be true to yourself. That's it. |
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Post by silence on Oct 19, 2013 13:15:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. 'Ego' is a belief, a set of values and ideas that creates an imaginary character that we can blame our unwanted traits on.. it's the you you wish you weren't, but you are.. Be well.. So we're an imaginary character? |
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:-[DIVORSE!!!1! 
