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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2013 12:09:42 GMT -5
So you figure the frequency and intensity decreased because you watched them, or because you don't identify with them so much? I'm interested in exactly what happens there and why. The watching and dis-identification seem intimately linked in that the witness sees the thoughts, sees the hooks in them and in the seeing knows the truth of the matter in the seeing. The hooks have no catches for latches precisely because of the dis-identified nature of the witness. The description of witnessing is a story, and that's why it sounds like a process -- it's a trick of the description itself. It's the tale of the relationship of a rock. Absent the realization you always come back to, the witness has no existence -- there are no special Elf-made-glasses that gollum can go out get at Walmart, or as the Beatles put it, money can't buy ya' love. That said, in the course of the meta-story, the suggestion to watch the thinker seemed to precede gollum's swan dive, but as you've said, realization is timeless. In terms of conditioning, what seems to be going on is that the conditioning erodes over time as it is witnessed and the witnessing itself is reinforced the same way that a running habit results in more energy for running or that eating lots of green vegetables decreases the craving for sugar. In terms of conditioning, as the propensity for noticing to occur becomes more likely, the frequency of something subject to noticing to arise goes down, and the description of that process would involve a rather complex modulation of overlapping and attenuating cycles. Okay, I see that as a fair description of standing on the bank of the river/noticing/becoming conscious (witnessing is cool too), and yes of course that's critical. What I'm focused on is actually inside that process. A thought arises and is witnessed. Attention is turned away from the thought because it is undesirable and one is trying to break the pattern of habitual thought. My concern is that I don't see thought as a habitual pattern running by itself that just requires reprogramming. No habit, no momentum, no programming. Thoughts still arise because there is an interest in forming them, even if there is also an interest in stopping them. The split mind aspect of this is also of concern. I'm not saying they don't stop, I'm saying they don't stop because you retrain the mind to break the habit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 12:17:56 GMT -5
thanks sharon, ok with first pragraph. 2nd, wow, I was well-off target. 3rd, Honest is best...don't know about paranoia.
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2013 12:27:49 GMT -5
So you figure the frequency and intensity decreased because you watched them, or because you don't identify with them so much? I'm interested in exactly what happens there and why. back in the day .. I read a bunch of this speerichal stuff, and something caught my eye ... something to the effect of 'thoughts perhaps being problematic' and 'silence perhaps being beneficial'. so, wanting to see for myself, I started observing my thoughts rather intently .. with another background thought leading the way .. "are they (thoughts) true?" and then after some months of that intent watching, (a realization?) occurred (maybe, perhaps, I guess, I don't know ) anyways, something seemed to change, instantaneously, ... "still mind" became a welcomed guest, and thoughts became more like a tool, and less like a harness. but, its impossible to know if this means anything whatsoever, or if it just means my thoughts changed due to the influence of the speerichal stuff I had read/heard/had interest in. Maybe it was simply a conditioning in another direction.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 12:29:06 GMT -5
thanks sharon, ok with first paragraph. 2nd, wow, I was well-off target. 3rd, Honest is best...don't know about paranoia. Cool, cool
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 3, 2013 12:31:09 GMT -5
no concious control over nothing? Each present thought whether it is about the past, the future or what is happening now, opens the possibility of conscious intent to move with it, think more about it, write a poem or recognise that it's been thought before and does not need to be thought through again. Amongst other conscious implementations of thoughts activity. What Enigma is saying is that there isn't anyone who has a hope in hell of knowing what thought will be thought next. To be honest it wipes the floor with paranoia, when mind realises that all those people that it can write hostile stories about itself about and send itself into a downward spiral with, don't know what they are going to think next. Paranoia is cleanly evicted. Hmmm not really true. IT can depend on what situation you put yourself in. If I go into a "cat" house I can tell you exactly what thought will come next. If it's late at night and I am taking a short cut though a cemetery and a animal runs by I can tell you what thought comes next. Thoughts arise much out of conditioning for most people. This is why they get caught up with the thought because the conditioning is there bonding with the thought. There was a time it was like this all the time with me. These days it's rare that any thought takes me by surprise..kinda of wish it would. The important thing that I realized is they are not my thoughts and never had been even when they use to stick with me. Nowhereman
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2013 12:33:06 GMT -5
Each present thought whether it is about the past, the future or what is happening now, opens the possibility of conscious intent to move with it, think more about it, write a poem or recognise that it's been thought before and does not need to be thought through again. Amongst other conscious implementations of thoughts activity. What Enigma is saying is that there isn't anyone who has a hope in hell of knowing what thought will be thought next. To be honest it wipes the floor with paranoia, when mind realises that all those people that it can write hostile stories about itself about and send itself into a downward spiral with, don't know what they are going to think next. Paranoia is cleanly evicted. Hmmm not really true. IT can depend on what situation you put yourself in. If I go into a sleeper house I can tell you exactly what thought will come next. If it's late at night and I am taking a short cut though a cemetery and a animal runs by I can tell you what thought comes next. Thoughts arise much out of conditioning for most people. This is why they get caught up with the thought because the conditioning is there bonding with the thought. There was a time it was like this all the time with me. These days it's rare that any thought takes me by surprise..kinda of wish it would. The important thing that I realized is they are not my thoughts and never had been even when they use to stick with me. Nowhereman Isn't it conditioning to find one's self agreeing with those they usually agree with?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 12:43:43 GMT -5
Each present thought whether it is about the past, the future or what is happening now, opens the possibility of conscious intent to move with it, think more about it, write a poem or recognise that it's been thought before and does not need to be thought through again. Amongst other conscious implementations of thoughts activity. What Enigma is saying is that there isn't anyone who has a hope in hell of knowing what thought will be thought next. To be honest it wipes the floor with paranoia, when mind realises that all those people that it can write hostile stories about itself about and send itself into a downward spiral with, don't know what they are going to think next. Paranoia is cleanly evicted. Hmmm not really true. IT can depend on what situation you put yourself in. If I go into a "cat" house I can tell you exactly what thought will come next. If it's late at night and I am taking a short cut though a cemetery and a animal runs by I can tell you what thought comes next. Thoughts arise much out of conditioning for most people. This is why they get caught up with the thought because the conditioning is there bonding with the thought. There was a time it was like this all the time with me. These days it's rare that any thought takes me by surprise..kinda of wish it would. The important thing that I realized is they are not my thoughts and never had been even when they use to stick with me. Nowhereman ?? Do you not like cats?
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 3, 2013 12:49:47 GMT -5
lol well I first put in the word w-hore but this site has a censor so it made my post say "sleeper house" lol instead of w-hore house so I used the ole cat house.. I luv cats but dogs more.. Nowhereman
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 12:49:47 GMT -5
Hmmm not really true. IT can depend on what situation you put yourself in. If I go into a sleeper house I can tell you exactly what thought will come next. If it's late at night and I am taking a short cut though a cemetery and a animal runs by I can tell you what thought comes next. Thoughts arise much out of conditioning for most people. This is why they get caught up with the thought because the conditioning is there bonding with the thought. There was a time it was like this all the time with me. These days it's rare that any thought takes me by surprise..kinda of wish it would. The important thing that I realized is they are not my thoughts and never had been even when they use to stick with me. Nowhereman Isn't it conditioning to find one's self agreeing with those they usually agree with? I got introduced to this idea about 4 years ago. And it wasn't Enigma that I initially read it from. Looking at thought closely and intimately reveals, first how fast they appear, how many can follow each other in response to the same situation.. i.e. if the first response isn't acted on another 3 or 4 responses will follow along in sharp succession. This was the period when some friends got annoyed with me for not answering them immediately and how if thought looks for the next thought, there isn't one. Until the looking stops. Play on Silver
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 12:51:35 GMT -5
lol well I first put in the word w-hore but this site has a censor so it made my post say "sleeper house" lol instead of w-hore house so I used the ole cat house.. I luv cats but dogs more.. Nowhereman Ok. So everytime an animal runs out at you in the cemetery you have the same thought?
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 3, 2013 12:57:55 GMT -5
lol well I first put in the word w-hore but this site has a censor so it made my post say "sleeper house" lol instead of w-hore house so I used the ole cat house.. I luv cats but dogs more.. Nowhereman Ok. So everytime an animal runs out at you in the cemetery you have the same thought? yep it's a oh sh*t thought
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2013 13:01:31 GMT -5
Ok. So everytime an animal runs out at you in the cemetery you have the same thought? yep it's a oh sh*t thought Yep, that would be. (Do you do a lotta this cemetery-running?)
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 3, 2013 13:07:10 GMT -5
yep it's a oh sh*t thought Yep, that would be. (Do you do a lotta this cemetery-running?) Mostly when I am constipated..
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Post by silver on Oct 3, 2013 13:14:09 GMT -5
Yep, that would be. (Do you do a lotta this cemetery-running?) Mostly when I am constipated..
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 3, 2013 13:17:25 GMT -5
Greetings.. The watching and dis-identification seem intimately linked in that the witness sees the thoughts, sees the hooks in them and in the seeing knows the truth of the matter in the seeing. The hooks have no catches for latches precisely because of the dis-identified nature of the witness. The description of witnessing is a story, and that's why it sounds like a process -- it's a trick of the description itself. It's the tale of the relationship of a rock. Absent the realization you always come back to, the witness has no existence -- there are no special Elf-made-glasses that gollum can go out get at Walmart, or as the Beatles put it, money can't buy ya' love. That said, in the course of the meta-story, the suggestion to watch the thinker seemed to precede gollum's swan dive, but as you've said, realization is timeless. In terms of conditioning, what seems to be going on is that the conditioning erodes over time as it is witnessed and the witnessing itself is reinforced the same way that a running habit results in more energy for running or that eating lots of green vegetables decreases the craving for sugar. In terms of conditioning, as the propensity for noticing to occur becomes more likely, the frequency of something subject to noticing to arise goes down, and the description of that process would involve a rather complex modulation of overlapping and attenuating cycles. Okay, I see that as a fair description of standing on the bank of the river/noticing/becoming conscious (witnessing is cool too), and yes of course that's critical. What I'm focused on is actually inside that process. A thought arises and is witnessed. Attention is turned away from the thought because it is undesirable and one is trying to break the pattern of habitual thought. My concern is that I don't see thought as a habitual pattern running by itself that just requires reprogramming. No habit, no momentum, no programming. Thoughts still arise because there is an interest in forming them, even if there is also an interest in stopping them. The split mind aspect of this is also of concern. I'm not saying they don't stop, I'm saying they don't stop because you retrain the mind to break the habit. That would require volition and consciously thinking the thoughts to "retrain the mind", and you have made it clear that no one is in control of that process.. your stories are telling each other stories that don't agree.. Be well..
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