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Post by tzujanli on Oct 2, 2013 21:38:19 GMT -5
Greetings.. I think a lot of us here could agree that thoughts have no ownership IOW thoughts are not your own. Okay if we go with this premise then think of thoughts as fruit flies they come and go but they do stay when you feed them. Fruit flies are most efficient in finding any kind of food. They don't really discriminate when it comes to food, so any food will do. Stop feeding them and like magic they go away seeking more food from somewhere else. What stops thoughts is the same imo no food no thoughts. The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet. You don't know anything about a thought until the thought becomes fully conscious and you can examine it in retrospect. However, it's arising from 'your' conditioning according to 'your' interest, so it's not like a fruit fly infestation looking for your interest. Your interest is what forms the thought in the first place. This is what makes ignoring the thought so problematic. You have an interest in it, you create it, and then you conclude the solution is to just not have an interest in it. The fact that you DO have an interest is why thoughts keep happening over and over, and why you so often get caught up in them. How often do you have a thought about basket weaving? My guess is not very often, and when you do it doesn't pull you into a thought train about it. Why doesn't the basket weaving fruit fly come around to be fed? Because you don't care enough to create the thought. The still mind doesn't even care about caring.. it is unconditionally curious about what is happening, so interested in the 'now' happening that it doesn't attach to past happenings or predict future happenings.. so much of this discussion is mind oriented story telling.. clarity happens when the mind oriented story telling is released, when it no longer serves the mind's infatuation with 'stories' that embellish its cleverness.. When you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, then you might be willing to let go of the stories that show-off how much you like your mind's clever story telling.. all that matters is seeing/experiencing what is actually happening, clarity, from which all else is reconciled.. when what is happening is seen with clarity, without the distortions of stories and beliefs, the traps of story-telling and mind-play are revealed.. it is seen how the stories and beliefs are used to avoid clarity and to avoid the awareness of the experiencer's complicity in suffering.. clarity removes the obstacles of doubt and hesitation, the distortions of story-telling and attachments to beliefs.. what remains is the doer and the doing, the Life and the living of it.. unimpeded by the illusions of beliefs, stories, and attachments, you have an unconditional relationship Life.. Or, you continue the mind-fest of story-telling and cartoon analogies to embellish more story-telling about which beliefs are better than others... when you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, you will let go of the mind-play and find the stillness.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2013 0:16:18 GMT -5
The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet. You don't know anything about a thought until the thought becomes fully conscious and you can examine it in retrospect. However, it's arising from 'your' conditioning according to 'your' interest, so it's not like a fruit fly infestation looking for your interest. Your interest is what forms the thought in the first place. This is what makes ignoring the thought so problematic. You have an interest in it, you create it, and then you conclude the solution is to just not have an interest in it. The fact that you DO have an interest is why thoughts keep happening over and over, and why you so often get caught up in them. How often do you have a thought about basket weaving? My guess is not very often, and when you do it doesn't pull you into a thought train about it. Why doesn't the basket weaving fruit fly come around to be fed? Because you don't care enough to create the thought. " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" One is in their head then? R U serious?
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2013 0:20:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet. You don't know anything about a thought until the thought becomes fully conscious and you can examine it in retrospect. However, it's arising from 'your' conditioning according to 'your' interest, so it's not like a fruit fly infestation looking for your interest. Your interest is what forms the thought in the first place. This is what makes ignoring the thought so problematic. You have an interest in it, you create it, and then you conclude the solution is to just not have an interest in it. The fact that you DO have an interest is why thoughts keep happening over and over, and why you so often get caught up in them. How often do you have a thought about basket weaving? My guess is not very often, and when you do it doesn't pull you into a thought train about it. Why doesn't the basket weaving fruit fly come around to be fed? Because you don't care enough to create the thought. The still mind doesn't even care about caring.. it is unconditionally curious about what is happening, so interested in the 'now' happening that it doesn't attach to past happenings or predict future happenings.. so much of this discussion is mind oriented story telling.. clarity happens when the mind oriented story telling is released, when it no longer serves the mind's infatuation with 'stories' that embellish its cleverness.. When you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, then you might be willing to let go of the stories that show-off how much you like your mind's clever story telling.. all that matters is seeing/experiencing what is actually happening, clarity, from which all else is reconciled.. when what is happening is seen with clarity, without the distortions of stories and beliefs, the traps of story-telling and mind-play are revealed.. it is seen how the stories and beliefs are used to avoid clarity and to avoid the awareness of the experiencer's complicity in suffering.. clarity removes the obstacles of doubt and hesitation, the distortions of story-telling and attachments to beliefs.. what remains is the doer and the doing, the Life and the living of it.. unimpeded by the illusions of beliefs, stories, and attachments, you have an unconditional relationship Life.. Or, you continue the mind-fest of story-telling and cartoon analogies to embellish more story-telling about which beliefs are better than others... when you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, you will let go of the mind-play and find the stillness.. Be well.. Dude!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 0:48:38 GMT -5
" thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" One is in their head then? R U serious? serious is a spiritual disease... " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" was taken from your earlier post!
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2013 2:56:24 GMT -5
serious is a spiritual disease... " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" was taken from your earlier post! You chopped the sentence and quoted it out of context. Either you're playing silly games or you can't read, which is why I asked if you were serious. Which is it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 2:58:46 GMT -5
serious is a spiritual disease... " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" was taken from your earlier post! You chopped the sentence and quoted it out of context. Either you're playing silly games or you can't read, which is why I asked if you were serious. Which is it? help me read then... what does this mean, " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 3:07:38 GMT -5
the way I understood what you were saying, is that if we are above-thought, an see thought-arising, it must be coming from below us.... thus, we must be in our head? If we are at a deeper-centre thought doesnt arise, it comes in from about us the mind having settled into and about its centre of gravity. Enigma.... I am trying to make sense of what you say. no pavlova flying here, and certainly no Games.
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Post by laughter on Oct 3, 2013 6:20:44 GMT -5
Well yes they can be problematic and that's when they tend to be noticed outside of sitting practice these days and the frequency and intensity of the sense of problem seems to attenuate over time -- the lack of interest always seems related, in one way or another, to the point of identity: who is it that has this problem? So you figure the frequency and intensity decreased because you watched them, or because you don't identify with them so much? I'm interested in exactly what happens there and why. The watching and dis-identification seem intimately linked in that the witness sees the thoughts, sees the hooks in them and in the seeing knows the truth of the matter in the seeing. The hooks have no catches for latches precisely because of the dis-identified nature of the witness. The description of witnessing is a story, and that's why it sounds like a process -- it's a trick of the description itself. It's the tale of the relationship of a rock. Absent the realization you always come back to, the witness has no existence -- there are no special Elf-made-glasses that gollum can go out get at Walmart, or as the Beatles put it, money can't buy ya' love. That said, in the course of the meta-story, the suggestion to watch the thinker seemed to precede gollum's swan dive, but as you've said, realization is timeless. In terms of conditioning, what seems to be going on is that the conditioning erodes over time as it is witnessed and the witnessing itself is reinforced the same way that a running habit results in more energy for running or that eating lots of green vegetables decreases the craving for sugar. In terms of conditioning, as the propensity for noticing to occur becomes more likely, the frequency of something subject to noticing to arise goes down, and the description of that process would involve a rather complex modulation of overlapping and attenuating cycles.
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Post by laughter on Oct 3, 2013 6:40:18 GMT -5
Greetings.. The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet. You don't know anything about a thought until the thought becomes fully conscious and you can examine it in retrospect. However, it's arising from 'your' conditioning according to 'your' interest, so it's not like a fruit fly infestation looking for your interest. Your interest is what forms the thought in the first place. This is what makes ignoring the thought so problematic. You have an interest in it, you create it, and then you conclude the solution is to just not have an interest in it. The fact that you DO have an interest is why thoughts keep happening over and over, and why you so often get caught up in them. How often do you have a thought about basket weaving? My guess is not very often, and when you do it doesn't pull you into a thought train about it. Why doesn't the basket weaving fruit fly come around to be fed? Because you don't care enough to create the thought. so much of this discussion is mind oriented story telling.. This is a story: The still mind doesn't even care about caring.. it is unconditionally curious about what is happening, so interested in the 'now' happening that it doesn't attach to past happenings or predict future happenings.. as is this: clarity happens when the mind oriented story telling is released, when it no longer serves the mind's infatuation with 'stories' that embellish its cleverness.. and these ... looks to be a total of 7, embellished with the characters of the doer and the experiencer, enhanced with the plot twist of the doing happily ever after the treasure hunt for clarity is complete: When you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, then you might be willing to let go of the stories that show-off how much you like your mind's clever story telling.. all that matters is seeing/experiencing what is actually happening, clarity, from which all else is reconciled.. when what is happening is seen with clarity, without the distortions of stories and beliefs, the traps of story-telling and mind-play are revealed.. it is seen how the stories and beliefs are used to avoid clarity and to avoid the awareness of the experiencer's complicity in suffering.. clarity removes the obstacles of doubt and hesitation, the distortions of story-telling and attachments to beliefs.. what remains is the doer and the doing, the Life and the living of it.. unimpeded by the illusions of beliefs, stories, and attachments, you have an unconditional relationship Life.. Or, you continue the mind-fest of story-telling and cartoon analogies to embellish more story-telling about which beliefs are better than others... when you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, you will let go of the mind-play and find the stillness.. Be well.. As you will, no doubt, continue to spew these repetitive low-serotonin sounding rants packed full of your blatant and recursive self-contradictions. ... oh, and almost forgot to add-in the bonus of the way these self-contradictions nest into one another: The still mind doesn't even care about caring.. it is unconditionally curious about what is happening, so interested in the 'now' happening that it doesn't attach to past happenings or predict future happenings.. when you want clarity as much as you want your next breath, you will let go of the mind-play and find the stillness..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 10:53:37 GMT -5
Well yes they can be problematic and that's when they tend to be noticed outside of sitting practice these days and the frequency and intensity of the sense of problem seems to attenuate over time -- the lack of interest always seems related, in one way or another, to the point of identity: who is it that has this problem? So you figure the frequency and intensity decreased because you watched them, or because you don't identify with them so much? I'm interested in exactly what happens there and why. back in the day .. I read a bunch of this speerichal stuff, and something caught my eye ... something to the effect of 'thoughts perhaps being problematic' and 'silence perhaps being beneficial'. so, wanting to see for myself, I started observing my thoughts rather intently .. with another background thought leading the way .. "are they (thoughts) true?" and then after some months of that intent watching, (a realization?) occurred (maybe, perhaps, I guess, I don't know ) anyways, something seemed to change, instantaneously, ... "still mind" became a welcomed guest, and thoughts became more like a tool, and less like a harness. but, its impossible to know if this means anything whatsoever, or if it just means my thoughts changed due to the influence of the speerichal stuff I had read/heard/had interest in.
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2013 11:25:51 GMT -5
You chopped the sentence and quoted it out of context. Either you're playing silly games or you can't read, which is why I asked if you were serious. Which is it? help me read then... what does this mean, " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" It doesn't mean anything by itself, it's just a phrase taken out of a sentence....This sentence: "The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 11:31:58 GMT -5
help me read then... what does this mean, " thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet" It doesn't mean anything by itself, it's just a phrase taken out of a sentence....This sentence: "The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet." no concious control over nothing?
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Post by enigma on Oct 3, 2013 11:33:53 GMT -5
the way I understood what you were saying, is that if we are above-thought, an see thought-arising, it must be coming from below us.... thus, we must be in our head? If we are at a deeper-centre thought doesnt arise, it comes in from about us the mind having settled into and about its centre of gravity. Enigma.... I am trying to make sense of what you say. no pavlova flying here, and certainly no Games. Arises just means....you know....shows up. No directional coordinates implied.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 11:40:58 GMT -5
the way I understood what you were saying, is that if we are above-thought, an see thought-arising, it must be coming from below us.... thus, we must be in our head? If we are at a deeper-centre thought doesnt arise, it comes in from about us the mind having settled into and about its centre of gravity. Enigma.... I am trying to make sense of what you say. no pavlova flying here, and certainly no Games. Arises just means....you know....shows up. No directional coordinates implied. arises arisen/falls fallen its ok Enigma... my education was hardly
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 11:57:51 GMT -5
It doesn't mean anything by itself, it's just a phrase taken out of a sentence....This sentence: "The only sense in which thoughts are not your own is that you have no conscious control over what thought arises because it hasn't arisen yet." no concious control over nothing? Each present thought whether it is about the past, the future or what is happening now, opens the possibility of conscious intent to move with it, think more about it, write a poem or recognise that it's been thought before and does not need to be thought through again. Amongst other conscious implementations of thoughts activity. What Enigma is saying is that there isn't anyone who has a hope in hell of knowing what thought will be thought next. To be honest it wipes the floor with paranoia, when mind realises that all those people that it can write hostile stories about itself about and send itself into a downward spiral with, don't know what they are going to think next. Paranoia is cleanly evicted.
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