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Post by steven on Oct 2, 2013 3:32:42 GMT -5
“Our problem is how to be free from all conditioning. Either you say it is impossible, that no human mind can ever be free from conditioning, or you begin to experiment, to inquire, to discover." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti what can said about conditioning? Hmmm.... I would ask who cares? The idea of conditioning is just that, an idea. It deserves as much attention as the next one that comes along. If peeps feel like its a problem for them then by all means, they should keep that illusion alive that there is something better than this. Keep chasing nirvana when it's all around them every second if only they would focus on it and not these ideas and problems. I have to agree with Tzu that some of the guru's of older times seemingly created problems instead of taking a more direct route similar to teachers like Tony Parson's. Although I don't believe that was the intention. Probably said in response to someone's question and then taken out of context later. Similar to Jesus's teachings. "the problem is we think there is a problem.....*whacks person with kendo stick*.... Is there?" Do you know of anyone that is seeking a Nirvana other than whats right here, right now? I don't know of anyone at this forum that is seeking Nirvana in the way you elude to, do you? I don't remeber ever meeting anyone who is either.
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Post by steven on Oct 2, 2013 3:35:37 GMT -5
There really isn't any momentum to conditioning. One thinks and acts repeatedly because the conditioning that drives the thought each time remains unchanged. Not engaging a particular thought doesn't change the conditioning that gives rise to it. Instead, the need for expression or fulfilment of that thought grows stronger, as it always does in repression. What you're saying is, repress the thoughts and that will make them stop. No, actually, it won't. In my experience the less I engage with the mind the less conditioned responses happen. I.E. I used to try and work out conversations with people ahead of time. Work out what I was gonna say. I no longer engage the thought to work conversations out ahead of time and that thought never surfaces anymore. Yeah, it seems that vasanas need engagement and involvement to some degree to keep their momentum of habituation.
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Post by onehandclapping on Oct 2, 2013 3:54:48 GMT -5
Hmmm.... I would ask who cares? The idea of conditioning is just that, an idea. It deserves as much attention as the next one that comes along. If peeps feel like its a problem for them then by all means, they should keep that illusion alive that there is something better than this. Keep chasing nirvana when it's all around them every second if only they would focus on it and not these ideas and problems. I have to agree with Tzu that some of the guru's of older times seemingly created problems instead of taking a more direct route similar to teachers like Tony Parson's. Although I don't believe that was the intention. Probably said in response to someone's question and then taken out of context later. Similar to Jesus's teachings. "the problem is we think there is a problem.....*whacks person with kendo stick*.... Is there?" Do you know of anyone that is seeking a Nirvana other than whats right here, right now? I don't know of anyone at this forum that is seeking Nirvana in the way you elude to, do you? I don't remeber ever meeting anyone who is either. Wasn't that kinda the point of the guys quote? To find a better this by solving an imagined problem? Get closer to nirvana? And I think a case could be set forth that your Samadhi thing falls in line similarly with this quote. "Peeps should try and attain this absolute samadhi state because its the end goal (nirvana if you will)" is a paraphrased statement of what you said for a while there. Everyone seeks nirvana IMO. Some just don't yet realize it's already here....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 4:01:43 GMT -5
There really isn't any momentum to conditioning. One thinks and acts repeatedly because the conditioning that drives the thought each time remains unchanged. Not engaging a particular thought doesn't change the conditioning that gives rise to it. Instead, the need for expression or fulfilment of that thought grows stronger, as it always does in repression. What you're saying is, repress the thoughts and that will make them stop. No, actually, it won't. In my experience the less I engage with the mind the less conditioned responses happen. I.E. I used to try and work out conversations with people ahead of time. Work out what I was gonna say. I no longer engage the thought to work conversations out ahead of time and that thought never surfaces anymore. Yeah, I learned that one. Pre-scripted conversations never happen and so any script can stop being written.
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Post by earnest on Oct 2, 2013 4:05:04 GMT -5
lol, no not at all.... where would it fit-in? i'm justa sillio woman tonite time for really kickin back Conditioning is always secondary
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 4:11:55 GMT -5
i'm justa sillio woman tonite time for really kickin back Conditioning is always secondary I get what you're saying though, can you be certain that it really qualifies as 'always'?
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Post by earnest on Oct 2, 2013 4:17:28 GMT -5
Conditioning is always secondary I get what you're saying though, can you be certain that it really qualifies as 'always'? This is one thing I am certain of. The interesting part is what is primary.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 4:20:51 GMT -5
I get what you're saying though, can you be certain that it really qualifies as 'always'? This is one thing I am certain of. The interesting part is what is primary. Ah blessed primacy.
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Post by laughter on Oct 2, 2013 7:12:22 GMT -5
Advaita Vedanta has countless practices for this, the variations are designed so that one may find what works for each person. The most well known, owing to Ramana and Niz, os to keep silent still attention continuously upon the self, or I Am....Ramana offered a means of doing this by suggesting that one always inquires: Who am I and when thoughts, desires, or reactions to life arise that one may get absorbed in or draw attention away from the self, one simply inquires with silent still attention: Who is having this desire, who is having this thought or emotion, who is having this reaction? and in so doing, the inquiry returns one to still silent attention on the self, or I Am. Still Silent Attention held on anything opens into meditation, and meditation opens into Samadhi, or the absorption of self into eternal existence. Continuously inquiring "Who is am I or Who is thinking etc..." keeps one from being absorbed in the movements of conditioning and desires and attachments. When one is absorbed in the movements of conditioning, desires, and attachments, one perpetuates them and keeps the momentum of the movement of self going. When one Continuously brings still silent attention back to the self, one removes the momentum of conditioning. There really isn't any momentum to conditioning. One thinks and acts repeatedly because the conditioning that drives the thought each time remains unchanged. Not engaging a particular thought doesn't change the conditioning that gives rise to it. Instead, the need for expression or fulfilment of that thought grows stronger, as it always does in repression. What you're saying is, repress the thoughts and that will make them stop. No, actually, it won't. Without going near this idea of momentum, I'll offer the distinction between the witnessing that I think Steve was referring to and the repression you're referring to. What I've experienced is a process of conditioning which seems to undo other conditioning that involves witnessing thoughts without reaction, without rejection -- just allowing them to arise and allowing them to fall away, to dissolve.
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Post by earnest on Oct 2, 2013 7:21:23 GMT -5
This is one thing I am certain of. The interesting part is what is primary. Ah blessed primacy. Ah Sharon,.. yes there is *that* primacy.. But I wasnt being that awesome. I was hoping someone was going to ask which primary I meant, and then I would say - shampoo... Conditioning is secondary,.. shampooing is primary... Ahh fahgeddit... long day and time for bed! I could talk about what one without a second is.... I'll see myself out now.
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Post by laughter on Oct 2, 2013 7:21:55 GMT -5
“Our problem is how to be free from all conditioning. Either you say it is impossible, that no human mind can ever be free from conditioning, or you begin to experiment, to inquire, to discover." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti what can said about conditioning? O.k., time for today's cliche! Everywhere you go, there you are.
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Post by laughter on Oct 2, 2013 7:30:03 GMT -5
Ah blessed primacy. Ah Sharon,.. yes there is *that* primacy.. But I wasnt being that awesome. I was hoping someone was going to ask which primary I meant, and then I would say - shampoo... Conditioning is secondary,.. shampooing is primary... Ahh fahgeddit... long day and time for bed! I could talk about what one without a second is.... I'll see myself out now. Yer all wet! The conditioner is tertiary! The water is what is primary ... er ... wait, is it the shower handle that's primary ... hmmmm ..... ...
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Post by laughter on Oct 2, 2013 7:38:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. The still mind sees what 'is' without the distortion of conditioning.. when what you see is inconsistent with what is seen with a still mind, 'you' are the only cure for conditioning.. Be well.. Well said ... but is a name a condition? but.. too many gurus create the problem then condition others to believe that the guru has the cure for the problem they created.. How would a still mind even understand a single word the guru had to say absent conditioning? Can a mind that would name a guru by his words be a still mind? let the inconsistencies go, it's that simple, Yes, especially if they arise internally ... it's not as if we're really able to resolve someone else's inconsistencies after all .... but for you to embed this in what you said seems a pre-emptive bit of self-service.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 9:25:54 GMT -5
“Our problem is how to be free from all conditioning. Either you say it is impossible, that no human mind can ever be free from conditioning, or you begin to experiment, to inquire, to discover." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti what can said about conditioning? Hmmm.... I would ask who cares? The idea of conditioning is just that, an idea. It deserves as much attention as the next one that comes along. If peeps feel like its a problem for them then by all means, they should keep that illusion alive that there is something better than this. Keep chasing nirvana when it's all around them every second if only they would focus on it and not these ideas and problems. I have to agree with Tzu that some of the guru's of older times seemingly created problems instead of taking a more direct route similar to teachers like Tony Parson's. Although I don't believe that was the intention. Probably said in response to someone's question and then taken out of context later. Similar to Jesus's teachings. "the problem is we think there is a problem.....*whacks person with kendo stick*.... Is there?" right, who cares? who cares about going to work, paying their taxes, watching some TV show, contemplating about psychology or philosophy? who is that? is s/he real, does he even exist? do the 7 billion really exist? and what is that mysterious common denominator from which everything arises? I don't know, and I don't know who makes these kind of inquiries, or why, but that appears to be what's happening, so I'm just gonna roll with it. ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 9:43:47 GMT -5
Ah blessed primacy. Ah Sharon,.. yes there is *that* primacy.. But I wasnt being that awesome. I was hoping someone was going to ask which primary I meant, and then I would say - shampoo... Conditioning is secondary,.. shampooing is primary... Ahh fahgeddit... long day and time for bed! I could talk about what one without a second is.... I'll see myself out now. .. l8trs
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