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Post by nowhereman on Oct 1, 2013 20:43:01 GMT -5
conditioning happens but not all the time, it happens to the body/mind but does not touch the Self. Example is in deep sleep you are nor cannot be conditioned in deep sleep. It's one reason why deep sleep is such a comfort and rest for the wearing non stop body/mind. We all have deep sleep so all of us experience being who we truly are without even a hint of conditioning.Nowhereman But can you call it an experience? Understood. It depends on who is speaking. The overall consensus is in deep sleep there is no experiencer there to experience anything. However there is Swami Atmananda Krishna Menon who writes in his book Atma Darshan that not only can you be aware of being in deep sleep you can make changes to your life while in deep sleep. To my knowledge he is the only one that I know who takes this view. For myself I can honestly say I never found myself to be in deep sleep nor know anyone that has. Nowhereman
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Post by enigma on Oct 1, 2013 22:02:53 GMT -5
How does one perform this practice? Advaita Vedanta has countless practices for this, the variations are designed so that one may find what works for each person. The most well known, owing to Ramana and Niz, os to keep silent still attention continuously upon the self, or I Am....Ramana offered a means of doing this by suggesting that one always inquires: Who am I and when thoughts, desires, or reactions to life arise that one may get absorbed in or draw attention away from the self, one simply inquires with silent still attention: Who is having this desire, who is having this thought or emotion, who is having this reaction? and in so doing, the inquiry returns one to still silent attention on the self, or I Am. Still Silent Attention held on anything opens into meditation, and meditation opens into Samadhi, or the absorption of self into eternal existence. Continuously inquiring "Who is am I or Who is thinking etc..." keeps one from being absorbed in the movements of conditioning and desires and attachments. When one is absorbed in the movements of conditioning, desires, and attachments, one perpetuates them and keeps the momentum of the movement of self going. When one Continuously brings still silent attention back to the self, one removes the momentum of conditioning. There really isn't any momentum to conditioning. One thinks and acts repeatedly because the conditioning that drives the thought each time remains unchanged. Not engaging a particular thought doesn't change the conditioning that gives rise to it. Instead, the need for expression or fulfilment of that thought grows stronger, as it always does in repression. What you're saying is, repress the thoughts and that will make them stop. No, actually, it won't.
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Post by steven on Oct 1, 2013 22:06:11 GMT -5
But can you call it an experience? Understood. It depends on who is speaking. The overall consensus is in deep sleep there is no experiencer there to experience anything. However there is Swami Atmananda Krishna Menon who writes in his book Atma Darshan that not only can you be aware of being in deep sleep you can make changes to your life while in deep sleep. To my knowledge he is the only one that I know who takes this view. For myself I can honestly say I never found myself to be in deep sleep nor know anyone that has. Nowhereman Its not uncommon that when there is sustained alertness and awareness centered in pure being that the conciousness of pure being remains even in deep sleep, when the mind/body passes into deep sleep. Regarding the "making changes to ones life" in sleep. There is a tantric method of this that involves sustaining continuous awareness that is carried over into deep sleep. The method is to focus on the breathing and feel the prana, or energy in the breath as it goes in and out....when you are sensitive to the life force in the breath, you consciously draw the breath and prana in through the forward and down to the heart...."breathing" it in from the forehead down to the heart. When you are going to sleep, maintain this awareness of prana being breathed in from the forehead to the heart with each inhalation, and visualize some dream, or something that you want that is harmonious....breath in the vision and the prana from the forehead to the heart as you are falling into sleep....if you can sustain this, and breath the prana and vision into your heart at the very moment that you cross into sleep, you will manifest that reality in the waking and sleeping dream. The Sutra Says: " With intangible breath in center of forehead, as this reaches the heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams, and over death itself." Its also said that if one does this while death is coming, that one can choose their rebirth in the next lifetime. There is another sutra that is a more simple practice, it just involves being alert and aware at the moment one passes into sleep....this one I practiced fir about a year some years back, and if you keep a bit of yourself alert and aware observing yourself the moment when you cross from waking into sleeping, with practice, you will remain aware in sleep. I practice this one every morning now....after I "wake up", I go back to sleep for a while while being aware, its a really nice way to begin your day.
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Post by enigma on Oct 1, 2013 22:12:03 GMT -5
I think conditioning determines how we treat one another, but I don't believe the opposite is true. Conditioning is not a revolving door, like it seems you're suggesting - It's a two-way street. I don't understand how either analogy applies. We treat others badly because of what we believe about others. Yes, I can see some reinforcing influence from the reaction to that, but the beliefs aren't caused by that reaction.
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Post by enigma on Oct 1, 2013 22:14:40 GMT -5
But can you call it an experience? Understood. It depends on who is speaking. The overall consensus is in deep sleep there is no experiencer there to experience anything. However there is Swami Atmananda Krishna Menon who writes in his book Atma Darshan that not only can you be aware of being in deep sleep you can make changes to your life while in deep sleep. To my knowledge he is the only one that I know who takes this view. For myself I can honestly say I never found myself to be in deep sleep nor know anyone that has. Nowhereman So, in general, we can say conditioning is present any time consciousness is present.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2013 22:22:00 GMT -5
“Our problem is how to be free from all conditioning. Either you say it is impossible, that no human mind can ever be free from conditioning, or you begin to experiment, to inquire, to discover." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti what can said about conditioning? 'conditioning' gets ones attention. People that create a mind do so to contain parental-instruction. First there is 'name-calling' and then... so on an on.... At first one attaches themselves to sounds, ideas, concepts... they pull them close about themselves and they become memories. They're always there, on call, and your Named self is at the centre of it all. Your name is conditioning, therefore you cannot be your name. As I have mentioned before, minds conditioning is best seen as 'a librarian sitting in the middle of her/his library of information, all labelled, categorised, some-things filed out of site in the basement, dew to lack of storage space at ground floor level, but its there....because "I" filed it.
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Post by silver on Oct 1, 2013 22:46:21 GMT -5
“Our problem is how to be free from all conditioning. Either you say it is impossible, that no human mind can ever be free from conditioning, or you begin to experiment, to inquire, to discover." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti what can said about conditioning? 'conditioning' gets ones attention. People that create a mind do so to contain parental-instruction. First there is 'name-calling' and then... so on an on.... At first one attaches themselves to sounds, ideas, concepts... they pull them close about themselves and they become memories. They're always there, on call, and your Named self is at the centre of it all. Your name is conditioning, therefore you cannot be your name. As I have mentioned before, minds conditioning is best seen as 'a librarian sitting in the middle of her/his library of information, all labelled, categorised, some-things filed out of site in the basement, dew to lack of storage space at ground floor level, but its there....because "I" filed it. it seems likely that if theres always more than one of 'us', there will be minding
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2013 22:53:12 GMT -5
'conditioning' gets ones attention. People that create a mind do so to contain parental-instruction. First there is 'name-calling' and then... so on an on.... At first one attaches themselves to sounds, ideas, concepts... they pull them close about themselves and they become memories. They're always there, on call, and your Named self is at the centre of it all. Your name is conditioning, therefore you cannot be your name. As I have mentioned before, minds conditioning is best seen as 'a librarian sitting in the middle of her/his library of information, all labelled, categorised, some-things filed out of site in the basement, dew to lack of storage space at ground floor level, but its there....because "I" filed it. it seems likely that if theres always more than one of 'us', there will be minding Minding ones own business is important.
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Post by silver on Oct 1, 2013 22:59:48 GMT -5
it seems likely that if theres always more than one of 'us', there will be minding Minding ones own business is important. RU trying to tell me something?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2013 23:07:01 GMT -5
Minding ones own business is important. RU trying to tell me something? lol, no not at all.... where would it fit-in?
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Post by silver on Oct 1, 2013 23:15:35 GMT -5
RU trying to tell me something? lol, no not at all.... where would it fit-in? i'm justa sillio woman tonite time for really kickin back
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 2:13:58 GMT -5
I know this is going to sound too simple-minded, but I think how we treat one another has a lot to do with it. It does on a real basic level, in that, when one is continually acting selfishly, or doing things like lying and stealing or being greedy or dishonest seems to more firmly entrench one in the self and perpetuate habitual movement and absorption in movement. I have been contemplating the Eight Fold path of Patanjali, and the last three of the eight are Dh?rana (concentrative attention) Dhayana (meditation) and Samadhi (complete absorption of self into God Union) but there are 6 other aspects, and they all relate to human behaviors like lack of greed, dishonesty, etc....it seems as though this is integral in not staying absorbed in the movement of a self. Is any of those other 6 about maths?
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Post by steven on Oct 2, 2013 2:47:18 GMT -5
It does on a real basic level, in that, when one is continually acting selfishly, or doing things like lying and stealing or being greedy or dishonest seems to more firmly entrench one in the self and perpetuate habitual movement and absorption in movement. I have been contemplating the Eight Fold path of Patanjali, and the last three of the eight are Dh?rana (concentrative attention) Dhayana (meditation) and Samadhi (complete absorption of self into God Union) but there are 6 other aspects, and they all relate to human behaviors like lack of greed, dishonesty, etc....it seems as though this is integral in not staying absorbed in the movement of a self. Is any of those other 6 about maths? 1. YAMA: With other Beings; Be Non-Violent, Be Truthful, Non-Covetous, Non-Stealing, In control of your sexual impulses, 2. NIYAMA: With yourself; Maintain Cleanlyness, Contentment with Yourself How You Are, Maintain Sustained Practice, Maintain Self Study, Surrender to God 3. ASANA: The Posture should be Steady amd Comfortable 4. PRANAYAMA: Practice breath control 5. PRATYAHARA: Withdraw yourself "inward" from the 5 senses and do not get absorbed in them without awareness. 6. DHARANA: Concentrate your whole conciousness on a single experience or thing. 7. DHYANA: Maintain concentrated attention until all sense of "doing disapears and only the existance of observer and observed remain in total stillness. 8. SAMADHI: Observer and Observed become one in a higher state of being where no self and no seperation, no individuation exist, only an absolute and limitless onesness.
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Post by onehandclapping on Oct 2, 2013 3:14:43 GMT -5
“Our problem is how to be free from all conditioning. Either you say it is impossible, that no human mind can ever be free from conditioning, or you begin to experiment, to inquire, to discover." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti what can said about conditioning? Hmmm.... I would ask who cares? The idea of conditioning is just that, an idea. It deserves as much attention as the next one that comes along. If peeps feel like its a problem for them then by all means, they should keep that illusion alive that there is something better than this. Keep chasing nirvana when it's all around them every second if only they would focus on it and not these ideas and problems. I have to agree with Tzu that some of the guru's of older times seemingly created problems instead of taking a more direct route similar to teachers like Tony Parson's. Although I don't believe that was the intention. Probably said in response to someone's question and then taken out of context later. Similar to Jesus's teachings. "the problem is we think there is a problem.....*whacks person with kendo stick*.... Is there?"
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Post by onehandclapping on Oct 2, 2013 3:29:37 GMT -5
Advaita Vedanta has countless practices for this, the variations are designed so that one may find what works for each person. The most well known, owing to Ramana and Niz, os to keep silent still attention continuously upon the self, or I Am....Ramana offered a means of doing this by suggesting that one always inquires: Who am I and when thoughts, desires, or reactions to life arise that one may get absorbed in or draw attention away from the self, one simply inquires with silent still attention: Who is having this desire, who is having this thought or emotion, who is having this reaction? and in so doing, the inquiry returns one to still silent attention on the self, or I Am. Still Silent Attention held on anything opens into meditation, and meditation opens into Samadhi, or the absorption of self into eternal existence. Continuously inquiring "Who is am I or Who is thinking etc..." keeps one from being absorbed in the movements of conditioning and desires and attachments. When one is absorbed in the movements of conditioning, desires, and attachments, one perpetuates them and keeps the momentum of the movement of self going. When one Continuously brings still silent attention back to the self, one removes the momentum of conditioning. There really isn't any momentum to conditioning. One thinks and acts repeatedly because the conditioning that drives the thought each time remains unchanged. Not engaging a particular thought doesn't change the conditioning that gives rise to it. Instead, the need for expression or fulfilment of that thought grows stronger, as it always does in repression. What you're saying is, repress the thoughts and that will make them stop. No, actually, it won't. In my experience the less I engage with the mind the less conditioned responses happen. I.E. I used to try and work out conversations with people ahead of time. Work out what I was gonna say. I no longer engage the thought to work conversations out ahead of time and that thought never surfaces anymore.
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