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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 18:29:21 GMT -5
We were discussing just that here: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/153033in context that quote from Ramana is saying that Sahaja Samadhi is the only true liberation, and that no matter how much one is experiencing Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Savikalpa Samadhi, one will not attain the total loss of self into Sahaja Samadhi (permanent and effortless Samadhi) until one clears the Vasanas. Ramana, nor Advaita Vedanta is saying that Samadhi is "just another experience", on the contrary, Permanent and Effortless Samadhi is the only true liberation according to both Ramana, and Advaita Vedanta in general. What they ARE saying, is that Samadhi will always only be temporary until one clears the Vasanas. Clearing the Vasanas is a means to attain Sahaja Samadhi... My own personal experience is that opening into Samadhi (both Nirvikalpa and Savikalpa), get easier with frequency, and that frequent meditation and Samadhi do a lot of clearing of the Vasanas...it's kinda like a circle, wherein Meditation and Samadhi help to clear the Vasanas, and the more the Vasanas are cleared, the more Samadhi increases in depth, duration, and effortlessness. This is especially true when one brings meditation and Samadhi into everyday living and activities....i.e. when they are integrated into all of life's activities so to speak. "There is a difference between the enlightenment of sam?dhi and self-realization. When a person achieves enlightenment, that person starts doing tapas to realize the self." Samadhi vs Self realizationHere is the wiki page you linked to in context....notice the last bit by Ramana: The initial experience of it is enlightenment and it is the beginning of the process of meditating to attain self-realization (tapas). "There is a difference between the enlightenment of sam?dhi and self-realization. When a person achieves enlightenment, that person starts doing tapas to realize the self."[8] According to Patañjali[9] sam?dhi has three different categories: Savikalpa - This is an interface of trans meditation[clarification needed] and higher awareness state, asamprajñata. The state is so named because mind retains its consciousness, which is why in savikalpa sam?dhi one can experience guessing (vitarka), thought (vic?ra), bliss (?nanda) and self-awareness (asmita).[9] In Sanskrit, "kalpa" means "imagination". Vikalpa (an etymological derivation of which could be ' ?? ??') connotes imagination. Patañjali in the Yoga S?tras defines "vikalpa" saying: ' ?- ??- - ??'. "Sa" is a prefix which means "with". So "savikalpa" means "with vikalpa" or "with imagination". Ramana Maharshi defines "savikalpa sam?dhi" as, "holding on to reality with effort".[10] Asamprajñata is a step forward from savikalpa. According to Patañjali,[9] asamprajñata is a higher awareness state with absence of gross awareness.[11] Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience.[12] Upon entering nirvikalpa sam?dhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection. Entering sam?dhi initially takes great training and willpower, and maintaining it takes even more will. The beginning stages of sam?dhi (laya and savikalpa sam?dhi) are only temporary. By "effort" it is not meant that the mind has to work more. Instead, it means work to control the mind and release the self. Note that normal levels of meditation (mostly the lower levels) can be held automatically, as in "being in the state of meditation" rather than overtly "meditating."[clarification needed] The ability to obtain positive results from meditation is much more difficult than simply meditating.[clarification needed] It is recommended to find a qualified spiritual master (guru or yogi) who can teach a meditator about the workings of the mind. As one self-realized yogi explained, "You can meditate but after some time you will get stuck at some point. That is the time you need a guru. Otherwise, without a Guru, chances are very slim."[13] Sam?dhi is the only stable unchanging reality; all else is ever-changing and does not bring everlasting peace or happiness. Staying in nirvikalpa sam?dhi is effortless but even from this condition one must eventually return to ego-consciousness. Otherwise this highest level of sam?dhi leads to nirv??a, which means total unity, the logical end of individual identity and also death of the body. However, it is entirely possible to stay in nirvikalpa sam?dhi and yet be fully functional in this world. This condition is known as sah?j? nirvikalpa sam?dhi or sah?j? sam?dhi. According to Ramana Maharshi, "Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi".[10].
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Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2013 19:16:42 GMT -5
"There is a difference between the enlightenment of sam?dhi and self-realization. When a person achieves enlightenment, that person starts doing tapas to realize the self." Samadhi vs Self realizationHere is the wiki page you linked to in context....notice the last bit by Ramana: The initial experience of it is enlightenment and it is the beginning of the process of meditating to attain self-realization (tapas). "There is a difference between the enlightenment of sam?dhi and self-realization. When a person achieves enlightenment, that person starts doing tapas to realize the self."[8] According to Patañjali[9] sam?dhi has three different categories: Savikalpa - This is an interface of trans meditation[clarification needed] and higher awareness state, asamprajñata. The state is so named because mind retains its consciousness, which is why in savikalpa sam?dhi one can experience guessing (vitarka), thought (vic?ra), bliss (?nanda) and self-awareness (asmita).[9] In Sanskrit, "kalpa" means "imagination". Vikalpa (an etymological derivation of which could be ' ?? ??') connotes imagination. Patañjali in the Yoga S?tras defines "vikalpa" saying: ' ?- ??- - ??'. "Sa" is a prefix which means "with". So "savikalpa" means "with vikalpa" or "with imagination". Ramana Maharshi defines "savikalpa sam?dhi" as, "holding on to reality with effort".[10] Asamprajñata is a step forward from savikalpa. According to Patañjali,[9] asamprajñata is a higher awareness state with absence of gross awareness.[11] Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience.[12] Upon entering nirvikalpa sam?dhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection. Entering sam?dhi initially takes great training and willpower, and maintaining it takes even more will. The beginning stages of sam?dhi (laya and savikalpa sam?dhi) are only temporary. By "effort" it is not meant that the mind has to work more. Instead, it means work to control the mind and release the self. Note that normal levels of meditation (mostly the lower levels) can be held automatically, as in "being in the state of meditation" rather than overtly "meditating."[clarification needed] The ability to obtain positive results from meditation is much more difficult than simply meditating.[clarification needed] It is recommended to find a qualified spiritual master (guru or yogi) who can teach a meditator about the workings of the mind. As one self-realized yogi explained, "You can meditate but after some time you will get stuck at some point. That is the time you need a guru. Otherwise, without a Guru, chances are very slim."[13] Sam?dhi is the only stable unchanging reality; all else is ever-changing and does not bring everlasting peace or happiness. Staying in nirvikalpa sam?dhi is effortless but even from this condition one must eventually return to ego-consciousness. Otherwise this highest level of sam?dhi leads to nirv??a, which means total unity, the logical end of individual identity and also death of the body. However, it is entirely possible to stay in nirvikalpa sam?dhi and yet be fully functional in this world. This condition is known as sah?j? nirvikalpa sam?dhi or sah?j? sam?dhi. According to Ramana Maharshi, "Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi".[10]. I'm having trouble maintaining an interest in the analysis and Sanskrit terms, and I didn't offer the quote as proof of anything, just to indicate that we can 'prove' anything we want by picking the right quotes. I'm not down with the whole idea of meditating to achieve this or that level of whatever, and it reeks of carrot. I'm not saying it isn't useful for some, just sayin I don't like carrots. What I relented on in that previous post was not Samadhi as the ultimate goal, but rather the validity of the path of the heart. Bhakti vs Jhnana for you fancy word peeps. If you're implying I took it out of context, I don't see where I did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 19:26:13 GMT -5
Steve I disagree you are mixing Samadhi which is a experience no matter how rare or highten you may find it to be with Liberation they are not the same at all. Ramana never said that any Samadhi including Sahaja(the natural one) was Liberation. Clearing the Vasanas is required for Liberation but again it's not any Samadhi. As long as one is clinging to any type of Samadhi and or experience then they are still chasing and seeking. The idea that if I work at this long enough I will finally get there comes from feeling you are lacking something and are not complete just as you are. This idea of lacking will always keep the seeker a seeker. Liberation is simply this knowing beyond any doubt that you never lacked anything. In Vedanta it's simply known as understanding but it's a very subtle understanding not of the mind. Peace nowhereman Hello Nowhereman, that is a very Neo-Advaitist view that neither Ramana, traditional Advaita Vedanta, or myself share. Please reference the following Ramana Maharshi Quotes: A similar explanation is given in Talk 465, wherein Sri Bhagavan says: (1) Meditation should remain unbroken as a current. If unbroken it is called samAdhi or Kundalini shakti. (2) The mind may be latent and merge in the Self; it must necessarily rise up again; after it rises up one finds oneself only as ever before. For in this state the mental predispositions are present there in latent form to remanifest under favourable conditions. (3) Again the mind activities can be completely destroyed. This differs from the former mind, for here the attachment is lost, never to reappear. Even though the man sees the world after he has been in the samAdhi state, the world will be taken only at its worth, that is to say it is the phenomenon of the One Reality. The True Being can be realised only in samAdhi; what was then is also now. Otherwise it cannot be Reality or Ever-present Being. What was in samAdhi is here and now too. Hold it and it is your natural condition of Being. Samadhi practice must lead to it. Otherwise how can nirvikalpa samAdhi be of any use in which a man remains as a log of wood? He must necessarily rise up from it sometime or other and face the world. But in sahaja samAdhi he remains unaffected by the world. So many pictures pass over the cinema screen: fire burns away everything; water drenches all; but the screen remains unaffected. The scenes are only phenomena which pass away leaving the screen as it was. Similarly the world phenomena simply pass on before the j~nAnI, leaving him unaffected. You may say that people find pain or pleasure in worldly phenomena. It is owing to superimposition. This must not happen. With this end in view practice is made. Practice lies in one of the two courses: devotion or knowledge. Even these are not the goals. Samadhi must be gained; it must be continuously practised until sahaja samAdhi results. Then there remains nothing more to do.
.Clearing the Vasanas is the MEANS of reaching the "goal" listed by Ramana... More by Ramana: When the disciple asks, "Is loss of body-consciousness a perquisite to the attainment of sahaja samAdhi?" Sri Ramana replies: What is body-consciousness? Analyse it. There must be a body and consciousness limited to it which together make up body-consciousness. These must lie in another Consciousness which is absolute and unaffected. Hold it. That is samAdhi. It exists when there is no body-consciousness because it transcends the latter, it also exists when there is the body-consciousness. So it is always there. What does it matter whether body-consciousness is lost or retained? When lost it is internal samAdhi: when retained, it is external samAdhi. That is all. A person must remain in any of the six samAdhi-s so that sahaja samAdhi may be easy for him.
.More from Sri Bhagavan: Samadhi is one's natural state. It is the under-current in all the three states. This - that is, 'I' - is not in those states, but these states are in It. If we get samAdhi in our waking state that will persist in deep sleep also. The distinction between consciousness and unconsciousness belongs to the realm of mind, which is transcended by the state of the Real Self. (Talk 136)
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 27, 2013 19:36:27 GMT -5
Yes but you can benefit to read deeper into Ramana words. One can truly say that Samadhi is one natural state and this is correct when you are speaking about what Advaita calls the provisional self. In truth states are states and they come and go . Any state no matter how natural it may be is Not Liberation. No offense but what I see in you is a burning desire to have Samadhi and as long as you have this then you feel you lack something and are not complete just as you are. This will keep you seeking after something until it is let go. I am a student of traditional Vedanta and James Swartz is my teacher and he would say the same to you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 19:41:50 GMT -5
Here is the wiki page you linked to in context....notice the last bit by Ramana: The initial experience of it is enlightenment and it is the beginning of the process of meditating to attain self-realization (tapas). "There is a difference between the enlightenment of sam?dhi and self-realization. When a person achieves enlightenment, that person starts doing tapas to realize the self."[8] According to Patañjali[9] sam?dhi has three different categories: Savikalpa - This is an interface of trans meditation[clarification needed] and higher awareness state, asamprajñata. The state is so named because mind retains its consciousness, which is why in savikalpa sam?dhi one can experience guessing (vitarka), thought (vic?ra), bliss (?nanda) and self-awareness (asmita).[9] In Sanskrit, "kalpa" means "imagination". Vikalpa (an etymological derivation of which could be ' ?? ??') connotes imagination. Patañjali in the Yoga S?tras defines "vikalpa" saying: ' ?- ??- - ??'. "Sa" is a prefix which means "with". So "savikalpa" means "with vikalpa" or "with imagination". Ramana Maharshi defines "savikalpa sam?dhi" as, "holding on to reality with effort".[10] Asamprajñata is a step forward from savikalpa. According to Patañjali,[9] asamprajñata is a higher awareness state with absence of gross awareness.[11] Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience.[12] Upon entering nirvikalpa sam?dhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection. Entering sam?dhi initially takes great training and willpower, and maintaining it takes even more will. The beginning stages of sam?dhi (laya and savikalpa sam?dhi) are only temporary. By "effort" it is not meant that the mind has to work more. Instead, it means work to control the mind and release the self. Note that normal levels of meditation (mostly the lower levels) can be held automatically, as in "being in the state of meditation" rather than overtly "meditating."[clarification needed] The ability to obtain positive results from meditation is much more difficult than simply meditating.[clarification needed] It is recommended to find a qualified spiritual master (guru or yogi) who can teach a meditator about the workings of the mind. As one self-realized yogi explained, "You can meditate but after some time you will get stuck at some point. That is the time you need a guru. Otherwise, without a Guru, chances are very slim."[13] Sam?dhi is the only stable unchanging reality; all else is ever-changing and does not bring everlasting peace or happiness. Staying in nirvikalpa sam?dhi is effortless but even from this condition one must eventually return to ego-consciousness. Otherwise this highest level of sam?dhi leads to nirv??a, which means total unity, the logical end of individual identity and also death of the body. However, it is entirely possible to stay in nirvikalpa sam?dhi and yet be fully functional in this world. This condition is known as sah?j? nirvikalpa sam?dhi or sah?j? sam?dhi. According to Ramana Maharshi, "Remaining in the primal, pure natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi".[10]. I'm having trouble maintaining an interest in the analysis and Sanskrit terms, and I didn't offer the quote as proof of anything, just to indicate that we can 'prove' anything we want by picking the right quotes. I'm not down with the whole idea of meditating to achieve this or that level of whatever, and it reeks of carrot. I'm not saying it isn't useful for some, just sayin I don't like carrots. Its funny, when I relate my own personal experience and the realizations that result, you disagree and dismiss them as the misunderstandings of a seeker who hasn't found his way. When I quote correlative experience and realization found in thousands of year old Advaita Vedanta you say the sanskrit you "have trouble holding interest". When I make the same correlation of my own experiences with the more contemporary Ramana discourses you give it a carrot smell lol One might ask, as I did before, why you are making 25,000 posts at a spiritual forum, versus a psychology forum, if, as you stated previously, believe that all any of this is really about is developing a healthier mind? And please, for the love of God don't say you never said that lol I really don't feel like reposting your quote. ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 20:00:46 GMT -5
Yes but you can benefit to read deeper into Ramana words. One can truly say that Samadhi is one natural state and this is correct when you are speaking about what Advaita calls the provisional self. In truth states are states and they come and go . Any state no matter how natural it may be is Not Liberation. No offense but what I see in you is a burning desire to have Samadhi and as long as you have this then you feel you lack something and are not complete just as you are. This will keep you seeking after something until it is let go. I am a student of traditional Vedanta and James Swartz is my teacher and he would say the same to you. Well, firstly, I am not feeling like I am lacking anything, second, with all due respect to your teacher, he is not a liberated Jnani, I am familiar with him. This does not mean he should not be teaching Vedanta, its just saying that his views are limited by his depth of clearing of the Vassanas and Mukti. All things are complete just as they are my friend, there is no question about that, and yet, when one is cebtered in the mind and individuated self, even though that self may be aware of its perfection, one is not abiding in the limitless persoective of Samsdhi, and, thusly, in a way is bound. it is true, that even that "bound" state is perfect though :-) I would be happy to have a dialogue with Mr. swartz if you like, and even his teacher ;-) What hapoens too frequently with Western teachers of Vedanta, is that they ate sent out to teach by Jnani's that are liberated, even when the western teacher is not, because even a non-liberated teacher of classical Vedanta is better than nothing. I compare it to when I was a Mdeic in the Army....in the field, undertrained medics are often called upon to provide advanced medical care typically reserved for a physician...this is because in the field, there are not enough trained physicians to provide care for everyone meeding it, so even under qualified care is better than nothing, and may save some lives. Having said that, I am mot saying that Swartz is under qualified, but if he agrees with what you have said there, i.e. that "knowledge of _________is true enlightenment" then he is not there yet. My own experiences indicate that, as do the teachings of all the truelly liberated Jnani's Like Ramana. I would very much welcome a dialague on the subject with your teacher ;-) Ask your teacher this please: Is true liberation knowing with absolute clarity that we lack nothing and all is perfection, or, is true liberation the the complete loss of self, never to return, in in the absolute oneness of Sahaja Samadhi?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 20:12:23 GMT -5
Yes but you can benefit to read deeper into Ramana words. One can truly say that Samadhi is one natural state and this is correct when you are speaking about what Advaita calls the provisional self. In truth states are states and they come and go . Any state no matter how natural it may be is Not Liberation. No offense but what I see in you is a burning desire to have Samadhi and as long as you have this then you feel you lack something and are not complete just as you are. This will keep you seeking after something until it is let go. I am a student of traditional Vedanta and James Swartz is my teacher and he would say the same to you. Haha sorry, but I just had a good gut laugh I went to Mr. Swartz website and found an "enlightenment quiz" lol And apparently, if you get the answers right, as he sees them, you are enlightened :-) What say you?
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 27, 2013 20:28:15 GMT -5
Lol Steve all I can say is you and our ego have a good marriage. Truly sir you can use a good look into the mirror. From all your posts the cry you have for Samadhi is so very clear..it's a give me give me give me yet you can say in a sane way that you have no lacking? It's clear to me you see your self in a most unusual way. You are still seeking, thinking if I can only get it...well good luck with that...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 20:30:38 GMT -5
Lol Steve all I can say is you and our ego have a good marriage. Truly sir you can use a good look into the mirror. From all your posts the cry you have for Samadhi is so very clear..it's a give me give me give me yet you can say in a sane way that you have no lacking? It's clear to me you see your self in a most unusual way. You are still seeking, thinking if I can only get it...well good luck with that... Thats your imaginative interpretation, look at what I have actually written...and without interpretation, show me something that I have written here that supports your view? Moreover, I have quoted Ramana IN context saying very specifically that what you have said is in err regarding Samadhi....and your response is that one should "read deeper", i.e. "interpret" what was said....stop interpreting, and just look at what I have written, and if that is not credible for you, stop interpreting what Ramana has said, and just read what he has written...In Full Context. Your interpretations of what I have written, and what Ramana has said, and even the Ric Veda, seem to be interpretations that support your views, and frankly, a kind of lazyness ;-) Since you posted about the Ric Veda, would you like to have a discussion about what the Ric Veda's say regarding Samadhi and Mukti?
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 27, 2013 20:40:26 GMT -5
Ok then but I need to go I will just say Steve that every post I have read of yours cries for Samadhi which is just a cry for another experience. This is no different from a addict cry for his fix, a baby for their mothers milk. It's all there and very clear. Everything you have written supports the view that you desire Samadhi as a person held underwater desires air. Now that is a profound sense of lack my friend. Take care Nowhereman
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 21:11:00 GMT -5
Ok then but I need to go I will just say Steve that every post I have read of yours cries for Samadhi which is just a cry for another experience. This is no different from a addict cry for his fix, a baby for their mothers milk. It's all there and very clear. Everything you have written supports the view that you desire Samadhi as a person held underwater desires air. Now that is a profound sense of lack my friend. Take care Nowhereman I'll just throw this out there....can you be 100% certain that your interpretation is accurate?
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 27, 2013 21:33:22 GMT -5
Well put it to a vote ask other members here that have read your posts. I will end with this. says. I mean really are able to accept what he says asthe truththen you may see how trval your desire for Samadhi really is..so here it is.. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ "The Truth is that I am no one and nothing exists!"
QUESTION : When I contemplate my real nature, the presence of "I am", a feeling of love without cause pervades me. Is this feeling correct or is it still an illusion?
Ranjit: It is the bliss of the Self. When you feel the presence of "I am", you forget all the concepts and all the objects within the illusion, and then this bliss appears. It is a unconditional state, but in the bliss there is still a little sense of an individual self. After all, everything you feel is still a concept. When you get tired of the external world and wish to be alone, you return to your own Self, but as long as there is an experiencer of a higher state, it is still only a projection of the mind.
The Self wants and needs nothing because the Self is empty. There is no pleasure nor displeasure in the Self because there is no sense of existence. When there is no experiencer, then why speak of experience or existence? There is nothing left to say or do because there are no longer any doubts or questions. The complete forgetfulness of the illusion means that nothing is, nothing exists. The illusion has no meaning for the Self. Self-realisation, or Self-knowledge, is the clear cut understanding that anything that comes and goes is unreal. How can anything be true if it goes away? Only That which is permanent and omnipresent can be real. And you are That! So now, what is there to say or do? You are the eternal Self without any 'I'-sense and there is no difference between the Self and Reality. If someone calls you, you reply "I am here", but before replying you know that you are always here.
There is nothing in the illusion which can improve Reality because He is the basis of everything. Reality is complete. Everything that appears, everything that you see, comes from the Reality. All the objects of perception come from Reality, and in the Reality there is no ignorance nor knowledge. What can you say about something that doesn't exist? What can you say about an unborn child? When you speak of anything it means that someone is experiencing something, but any sense of existence is still ignorance. When there is still a sense of existence, it means that you are away from your Self. Both knowledge and ignorance are like the two faces of a coin. After realisation both disappear, because you understand that without knowledge there could be no ignorance, no 'I'-sense. Knowledge is never true because it comes from the past. The Truth is that I am no one and nothing exists!
When you love the illusion, it is only a state of your mind, and every state is conditioned. The unconditional is stateless and is the non-existence of the illusion. It is very subtle and can only be realised when you enquire into your own Self. Your own Self is always present, but when you love the illusion, you forget Him. What to do? For example, you need a mirror to see your face, but when you walk in the street do you need a mirror to remember what your face looks like? In the same way, Reality is always here, has always been here and will always be here, and apart from Him nothing else is. Every point in the universe is Him. The mind and senses cannot reach Him because He is omnipresent. You will understand that "I am Reality" when you forget about everything. The sun needs nothing, it just shines. Reality is the same.
Real happiness is within you and not outside. In deep sleep you are happy because you forget the world. Therefore, happiness lies in the forgetting of the world. Leave the world as it is, don't destroy it, but understand that it is not. Do everything you have to do yet remain detached, understanding that whatever you feel, perceive and achieve is an illusion. Your mind must accept that nothing exists.
The saints say, "Since everything is nothing, how can it affect you?" But what your mind says affects you, so what to do? The mind is nothing else but knowledge. People differentiate the mind from knowledge, but this is incorrect. There is nothing in the world. It is an illusion. Only Reality is, and when you understand that the illusion is really an illusion, then it will never affect you. After this understanding, nothing remains. A lotus leaf lives in water, drinks water, but is never touched by water. If you pour water on it, the water rolls off the leaf.
The bliss of the Self that you feel is still the pleasure of knowledge. First you must become aware, and then you become Reality itself because you are already Him. Therefore, there is no harm in living in the illusory world because it doesn't exist. The lotus remains in the water but doesn't care for it. In this way you must experience your true nature. I use the word 'experience', but words cannot even penetrate Him. He is beyond space, beyond zero. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna says, "From where the words return is my state." He was a ruling king, but he still understood that everything is nothing. You don't understand that nothing can ever touch you. When you feel touched by something, it means you are still in the illusion. This must be understood. There is no Master nor disciple in the Reality because everything is One. Duality doesn't exist. Apart from oneness, there is nothing. Therefore, remain in the illusion with this understanding.
Two friends wanted to play a trick on another friend. One of them insulted the other, and the other just laughed. The third friend was troubled and said, "How can you laugh when he insults you?" He could laugh because he possessed the key to the game, but the third friend couldn't understand. In the same way, a realised being that lives in the world understands that nothing is happening. Therefore, he remains untroubled. People always fear what might happen or what others might say. They think, "What will I do if that happens?" This is all due to the bondage of the mind. The one who is out of this circle understands that it is all nothing. It is said that only the one who dives deep into the ocean can find the pearl. The one who remains on the surface is carried away by the stream of pleasure and suffering. You must dive deep into the depths of the unlimited Self because that is where you are. Don't stop at the limited mind, go deeper. The gold doesn't care for the shapes it takes in the ornaments. It may be in the shape of a dog or a God, but it remains unconcerned with all forms. In the same way, be indifferent to things because they do not exist.
Nothing can ever touch you. You are always unattached. The mind must come to the point of the complete understanding of the illusion. There lies your state. Nothing remains for he who understands. There is no more gain nor loss. Don't ask if you can achieve Reality because you are the Reality. Why ask, "Can I?" First of all get out of the circle of illusion. Leave everything, one after the other, and go deep within your Self. Then come back and be in All. What you describe is no doubt a good state, but go a little further. When the mind accepts that everything is an illusion, only illusion, then you are your Self. The body and the mind are only illusion. You should be happy to know this. Get rid of your identification. The only thing the Master does is to reveal your real power which is already within you. Until now you have paid no attention to That. It was a ordinary stone and the Master reveals its true nature, true value, which is a diamond. He makes you the most precious stone.
I am omnipresent and almighty. I am the creator of all which is. When you are at the base of all, you are in All. Therefore, even a murderer cannot be considered as bad. Whatever is happening is due to "my order, my will." Be the Master, not the slave! You are the Master.
Question: I would like to know why some realised persons reincarnate in order to help others to realise their Self?
Ranjit: Nobody comes, nobody goes. Who told you that? You have read books and you repeat, no? It is said that the greatest man is the one who dies unknown. Rama and Krishna were secondary heroes. The accomplished man lives in silence and dies in silence. Then, their thought works in someone else. But it is nonsense that they come back.
Nobody comes, nobody goes. All is a dream. In a dream you can become a great Master, but when you wake up, you come back to your ordinary state. Who has gone there and who has come back? Nothing has happened. The concept of a "great Master" has come upon you, and you have become the "great Master", but when you wake up you feel, "All this is nonsense. How can I be a great Master? I know nothing!" Still, in the dream, you were giving lectures and were talking easily about all these things, but when awakening comes, all this knowledge vanishes. It was only a dream. From where has it come and to where has it disappeared? When nothing is, all is only beliefs and concepts of the mind. The so-called sage who says, "I am the reincarnation of God", doesn't know Him, doesn't know Reality. On the contrary, he is the slave of his ego, of illusion. When knowledge itself has no entity, there is no question of all these things.
He who understands gets rid of everything. This person looks like an ordinary one, but his heart is quite different. If you stay outside, how can you understand? To become the owner of the house you must enter it. In the same way, you must penetrate your own Self to become the owner. But there, in the Self, the 'I' doesn't remain as 'I'. There is no more question of Master and disciple. The thought of a Master can inspire whoever takes a body, because he and the one who is in silence are One. Penetrate the heart of the realised one, and you don't remain as 'you, because only He is. So it is said that those who teach are incarnations of God. The Master teaches knowledge to all, but doesn't value it because He knows that knowledge is the greatest ignorance. Therefore, don't be touched by anything.
Question: If all is illusion, are you yourself an illusion?
Ranjit: Oh yes! I am the greatest illusion! All that I say with full heart and so frankly is all false! But the false words that the Master tells you can make you reach that point. The address of the person is not real, only the person is real. When you reach the house thanks to the address you have been given, the address is true only until the moment you enter the house. As soon as you come in, the address vanishes. Words are nothing else but indicators and have no reality themselves. If 'I' remains, I am also an illusion. Don't remain as 'I'. That is the highest understanding of philosophy. Saint Tukaram said, "I have seen my own death, and what I have seen there, the joy that was revealed, that I know." First of all, you must die. 'You' means 'illusion'.
Therefore, the words I use are false, but they take you to your Self. I speak for That. The address is false, but when you reach the destination, it is Reality. In the same way, all the scriptures and mythological books are meant only to indicate that point, and when you reach it, they become non-existent, empty. Words are false. Only the meaning they convey is true. They are illusion, but they give a true meaning. Therefore, all is illusion, but to understand the illusion, the illusion is needed. For example, to remove a thorn from your finger you use another thorn. Then, once the thorn is removed, you throw both away. But if you keep the second thorn, you'll surely get pricked again. To remove ignorance, knowledge is necessary, but finally both must dissolve into Reality. There is no ignorance nor knowledge in the Self.
The Master and the disciple are illusions, because in fact they are One. The false can be removed only by the false. If you keep the second thorn, which means knowledge, even if it is a golden thorn you will still get pricked. The ego is the only illusion. It is knowledge. It is said that to catch a thief you must become a thief. Then you can tell him, "Beware, I am here and know that you are a thief, so don't try to rob me." But you cannot catch the thief because he has four eyes and you have only two. At a glance the thief notices the valuables, and if you are not aware he robs you. The illusion is like the thief, so you must be stronger than him. Your mind must accept that all is illusion, only illusion. Then, you'll be the "greatest of the greatest".
Knowledge is a great thing when it is used as a remedy. When the fever goes away thanks to medicine you took, you no longer need to keep taking it. Don't prolong the treatment or you will create more problems. Knowledge is only necessary to remove the disease of ignorance. The doctor will always prescribe a limited dosage. First of all, understand that the 'I' is an illusion and what 'I' says is also illusion. The Master is an illusion, as well as what He says, because in the Reality there is only Oneness and no duality. 'I' and 'He' do not exist anymore. Go deep within your Self, so deep that you disappear. For example, a goat enters your house and you open all the doors to make it go out, and then a camel comes in. The camel is just like knowledge. So, to get rid of the camel you must break down the walls of the house. Then you are out of the illusion.
Whatever happens in the illusion is only illusion. In fact, nothing ever happens. So many things appear in the world. So many beings are born and die, but it is all a dream. You must accept this. Your mind should not be touched by the illusion. When someone dies, other people cry. The realised being remains quiet, knowing that nothing has happened and nothing is lost. Matter is never lost. When a body dies, the five elements that the body is composed of return to the five elements. And the life-force, the power, returns to itself. Only the illusion, the name and form, disappears. Be formless and nameless. If someone asks you your name, tell him, but be conscious that you are not that name. You must go beyond illusion for it to disappear. When you don't touch it, it doesn't touch. Understand that it is just like fire. If you try to extinguish it, you will get be burnt. Leave it alone. Understand that nothing can touch me, nothing can limit me, nothing can fathom me, and nothing can evaluate me. Everything is an illusion. Due to the 'I'-thought, you feel a sense of importance for the world. You say, "This is my house, this is my chair, and all these things are mind." Things never say that they belong to you. They are mute and inanimate. Be mute and stay in your Self.
Once you accept what the Master says as true, you are close to your goal. The key is the Master's instructions, and when you take what he says to heart, you will be the happiest of all beings. Everything depends on your capacity to accept. You must always go straight to the essence of things. The essence of what He says has true meaning. Take the essence of the flower and be happy, but know that even the essence is not true.
Question: If a beggar asks for money from a realised being, what will he do?
Ranjit: It is his choice whether to give or not. Because after all everything is an illusion. He can seem merciless to the point of not giving water to a dying man. If a dying man is crying for water, he won't give any because he knows that the man is about to die, and giving water will only prolong his suffering. You think you are doing some good by giving him water, but you are only adding to his suffering. Due to ignorance, he wants to live longer. But hat can you get by breathing a little more? I don't advise you to be merciless, but understand that by giving in to his wish, you are only handing him more suffering. The one who thinks he has done a great deed is misled.
If you give a hundred rupees to a beggar, he won't be a rich man the next day. He will continue to beg because this habit of begging has become so deeply ingrained in him that it has become second nature. From birth, all beings beg hoping to attain happiness. Finally they die without attaining it. Even when you go to church to pray, you become a beggar in front of God. First you beg for yourself, then for your wife, and finally for your children. First for you and then for the others. Everyone is primarily concerned with his or her own happiness. But it can never be attained because the methods you use to obtain it are wrong. Always follow what your Master has told you. If you do, you will be one with Him. All habits are nothing but the results of a narrow mind. Mind is knowledge, and when knowledge comes into contact with matter [the body], it takes the form of passions and habits. These habits and passions make you miserable. So have the understanding that when you enter the prison [illusory world], you are not the culprit. Stay in the world but say, "Nothing is true!" Don't cater to your passions. Understand what they are, and then you will be free in life as long as the body is there. One day this body will disappear, but you will never die because you were never born. Blessed is the one who realises the Self. Realising means understanding, and if you understand that it is all illusion, you will always be happy.
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Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2013 21:38:32 GMT -5
I'm having trouble maintaining an interest in the analysis and Sanskrit terms, and I didn't offer the quote as proof of anything, just to indicate that we can 'prove' anything we want by picking the right quotes. I'm not down with the whole idea of meditating to achieve this or that level of whatever, and it reeks of carrot. I'm not saying it isn't useful for some, just sayin I don't like carrots. Its funny, when I relate my own personal experience and the realizations that result, you disagree and dismiss them as the misunderstandings of a seeker who hasn't found his way. In general, I don't have an issue with your insights. Actually, I rarely question them. Mostly what I seem to question is your focus. I'm happy for your experiences, Steve. I thought I made it clear it's not a path I'm particularly interested in. Yeah, Ramana chatting with Hindus about the various forms and stages of practice is a big yawn for me. Sorry bout that. Well, I thought we agreed to stop beating each other over the head about different 'paths', but I guess we miscommunicated, so let the beatings continue. I don't like psychology much. It's too analytical and generally lacks depth of insight. Philosophy suffers a similar fate. It's not really about developing a healthier mind, it's more about becoming sane and conscious. certainly, that results in what you could call a healthier mind, but not in the way psychology would mean that. Sanity and consciousness, in the way I mean it in this context, are transcendent qualities. It actually means awake and alive, and that pretty much means spirituality.
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Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2013 21:46:03 GMT -5
Yes but you can benefit to read deeper into Ramana words. One can truly say that Samadhi is one natural state and this is correct when you are speaking about what Advaita calls the provisional self. In truth states are states and they come and go . Any state no matter how natural it may be is Not Liberation. No offense but what I see in you is a burning desire to have Samadhi and as long as you have this then you feel you lack something and are not complete just as you are. This will keep you seeking after something until it is let go. I am a student of traditional Vedanta and James Swartz is my teacher and he would say the same to you. Haha sorry, but I just had a good gut laugh I went to Mr. Swartz website and found an "enlightenment quiz" lol And apparently, if you get the answers right, as he sees them, you are enlightened :-) What say you? Why, do you figure your quiz would be better?
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Post by enigma on Sept 27, 2013 21:53:02 GMT -5
Lol Steve all I can say is you and our ego have a good marriage. Truly sir you can use a good look into the mirror. From all your posts the cry you have for Samadhi is so very clear..it's a give me give me give me yet you can say in a sane way that you have no lacking? It's clear to me you see your self in a most unusual way. You are still seeking, thinking if I can only get it...well good luck with that... Thats your imaginative interpretation, look at what I have actually written...and without interpretation, show me something that I have written here that supports your view? You've been shooting for permanent Samadhi, talking endlessly about it, and see it as the ultimate goal of every form of religion and spirituality. That's what you've actually written. You can say all that and then lean back in your chair and say you don't really need it, but who's going to believe you?
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